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Thread: Japanese Saws

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Dupont View Post
    Interesting that you mention Arkansas stones. Do you tend to ever use them with Japanese tools, or do you just have a few laying about?

    For my western saws, I actually set the teeth by hand with a wrest or screw driver and remove any excessive set with a hammer, as Frank Klausz demonstrates. I find that using a few blocks of hardwood (or softer, depending how much set I'm trying to remove) sandwiching the plate makes getting consistent results easier. I wouldn't recommend this technique if you can't add more set back, though, because it's easy to go too far and remove too much set. It definitely takes some practice.

    I might try your stone technique on some of my disposable blade saws. It sounds much easier to get consistent results that way.
    Arkansas stone have their place in my workshop, mostly for sharpening and polishing tools and machine parts that must stay absolutely flat. I grew up using Arkansas stones, and despite what Warren says, have a lot of experience using them. I simply moved on to more efficient stones for sharpening blades.

    Have you used the hardwood block technique with kaeba saws? Did it work well?

    Compared to the typical Western dovetail saw which has 15 to 17 ppi, the finer-toothed kaeba saws have 30 ppi. Adding set back to such tiny and delicate teeth would be challenge.

    I have a custom-made dozuki with 42ppi, and the sawsmith set the teeth with a hammer and anvil in a continuous series of hammer strikes, 3 or 4 minutes per side. When I asked, he said he doesn't even see the teeth anymore, just hits them. He files the teeth without bothering to look at them either.

    It wouldn't be worth the cost to have such a man tune a kaeba dozuki blade, so the stoning process is a useful option.

    Stan

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    I have heard of clamping the blade in a vise, or between two plates of steel, to bend the teeth thereby reducing set. Not sure how well it would work, or if the teeth's sharpness would be worth a tinker's damn afterwards. If you have used the vise method, please tell us how it went.
    Stan
    To do this by clamping you have to ensure that the two flat steel plates (I use Starrett's precision-ground O1) will apply pressure exactly parallel to each other and to the sawplate. You can do that with a good machinist's vise, and you can also accomplish it by floating one of the plates so that it registers to the sawplate and thereby to the other plate in a common mechanic's vise. The "floating plate" approach is preferable for saws with tapered plates even if you do have a parallel vise, because then you want the clamp plate to follow the taper.

    You then find a sheet of paper, the thickness of which is roughly equal to (or slightly larger than) the desired final pre-side set. Fold the paper over the teeth such that it covers both sides, insert that package into your vise, and clamp away. It's remarkably accurate, and is based on the observation that the tooth points apply enough local pressure to pierce/compress the paper and therefore register to the clamping plates, while the sawplates apply much less pressure and register to the ~full thickness of the paper.

    The clamping plates don't need to be harder than the saw plate, because you're just bending weakly supported cantilevered beams (the teeth) as opposed to actually indenting material as in a hardness test.

    EDIT: The big advantage of the clamping approach is that it doesn't add another facet to the tooth. Stoning does, since it creates a side-facet ~parallel to the plate at the full set distance. While avoding such side-facet is generally held to be a plus on Western saws, I don't know about Japanese ones.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 07-17-2016 at 12:33 AM.

  3. #18
    I have a handful of Japanese saws. A 240mm Ryoba (made by Gyokucho) is what I find myself using the most, because of it's versatility and size. I find it to be quite adequate for smaller timber frame work and woodworking as long as it's not super detailed work.

    I recently got a fine Dozuki from Lee Valley (this one -> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/pag...884,42898&ap=1 ) and it seems like a great saw so far. I used it to crosscut recently on some stretcher tenons for a Roubo style bench I'm building and found that in crosscutting Doug Fir 3" + wide it had a tendency to wander on the far side of the cut, consistently to the right at the bottom of the far side, even with a light touch. I switched to the Ryoba for those cuts and have had no issues with the cut wandering, so that is probably a bit wide for that saw to crosscut (the blade is only 7 1/4" long, I believe.) Haven't cut any dovetails with it yet, but I imagine that's where it would shine. It's very smooth and the teeth are very fine (25 tpi). I'd love to get a slightly longer (9" ?) Dozuki for larger work.

    I've found that less is more with the pull saws. If you take your time getting the cut started accurately and don't force the saw, the quality and accuracy of the cut will be better for it. Seems like a no-brainer, but a slightly different touch than Western saws.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    To do this by clamping you have to ensure that the two flat steel plates (I use Starrett's precision-ground O1) will apply pressure exactly parallel to each other and to the sawplate. You can do that with a good machinist's vise, and you can also accomplish it by floating one of the plates so that it registers to the sawplate and thereby to the other plate in a common mechanic's vise. The "floating plate" approach is preferable for saws with tapered plates even if you do have a parallel vise, because then you want the clamp plate to follow the taper.

    You then find a sheet of paper, the thickness of which is roughly equal to (or slightly larger than) the desired final pre-side set. Fold the paper over the teeth such that it covers both sides, insert that package into your vise, and clamp away. It's remarkably accurate, and is based on the observation that the tooth points apply enough local pressure to pierce/compress the paper and therefore register to the clamping plates, while the sawplates apply much less pressure and register to the ~full thickness of the paper.

    The clamping plates don't need to be harder than the saw plate, because you're just bending weakly suuported cantilevered beams (the teeth) as opposed to actually indenting material as in a hardness test.

    EDIT: The big advantage of the clamping approach is that it doesn't add another facet to the tooth. Stoning does, since it creates a side-facet ~parallel to the plate at the full set distance. While avoding such side-facet is generally held to be a plus on Western saws, I don't know about Japanese ones.
    Patrick:

    Thanks for the excellent description. I will give it a try next time.

    I don't think the facets are a plus, they are just better than the alternative.

    Stan

  5. #20
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    Thanks for coming to the rescue yet again Stanley. Good to know how the Silky saws fit into the Japanese saw world.

    Phillip got me to the Lee Valley Japanese saw pages. They actually sell both of the Silky saws I have and replacement blades too, should have checked there. I was also interested to read their explanation of Japanese saw technology and how this technology made it to Taiwan and from there apparently to Korea. LV sells a "Steel-Backed Dozuki" made in South Korea that costs less than a replacement blade for my Silky Dozuki. LV claims this saw is comparable to their top-of-the-line professional dozuki. They insinuate that Korea may be making blades for companies like Silky now.

    I wonder if the South Korean saw is worth a shot? It seems a little odd that it is a good size saw, 22 1/2 inches overall with a 265mm blade. The 25 tpi blade with the steel back is between what LV lists my Woodboy Kataba is at 22 tpi and my steel backed Silky Dozuki at 28 tpi. Lee Valley list their professional grade Japanese saw as 25 tpi too. I believe the intended use for these saws is "fine work", which could be dovetails or even tenons I imagine.

    Brian, where are you ordering your saws from?
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 07-17-2016 at 5:28 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Phillip got me to the Lee Valley Japanese saw pages. They actually sell both of the Silky saws I have and replacement blades too, should have checked there. I was also interested to read their explanation of Japanese saw technology and how this technology made it to Taiwan and from there apparently to Korea. LV sells a "Steel-Backed Dozuki" made in South Korea that costs less than a replacement blade for my Silky Dozuki. LV claims this saw is comparable to their top-of-the-line professional dozuki. They insinuate that Korea may be making blades for companies like Silky now.

    I wonder if the South Korean saw is worth a shot? It seems a little odd that it is a good size saw, 22 1/2 inches overall with a 265mm blade. The 25 tpi blade with the steel back is between what LV lists my Woodboy Kataba is at 22 tpi and my steel backed Silky Dozuki at 28 tpi. Lee Valley list their professional grade Japanese saw as 25 tpi too. I believe the intended use for these saws is "fine work", which could be dovetails or even tenons I imagine.
    Its been some years since I was in intimate contact with kaeba saw makers in Japan. When I was, however, they were afraid of their technology getting to China. In fact, one company that makes the sawblade making machines told me that they were aware of a couple of their old worn-out machines they sold used to another Japanese company that ended up in Korea.

    I think there are two things you can rely on with the Koreans, Taiwanese, and most especially the Chinese: The first is that they will replace the extremely high-quality Swedish steel the Japanese companies use with lower-quality steel. The second is that tolerances will get sloppy. The Taiwanese will be better than the Koreans, who will be better than the Chinese.

    The Swedish steel is really excellent stuff. Too nice to throw away when the blade is dull or kinked. The best blade steels in the world, whether Japanese, American, or German, start with Swedish steel.

    22 TPI is standard for teeth found on Japanese kaeba dozuki. Professional saws start at 30TPI. 36 - 42TPI are high end professional saws. The plate on a truly professional saw is entirely different in shape (varying thickness and taper) requiring many hours of hand work by men with many years of experience, something that cannot be done by machine or at a low price, much less in Taiwan or Korea by factory workers operating automated machinary. These skills are not unique to Japan, but the skills are no longer alive outside Japan anymore, that I know of. The old high-end USA saws are a treasure.

    A description of sizzle in an ad is not bacon, even if it's sold from Canada. LV does not sell a truly professional-grade dozuki saw, which would start in price at around $450, and not be kaeba (not that professionals don't use kaeba saws). I am talking about Japanese professional standards, not Canadian. You really must compare a kaeba saw, even a tuned one, and professional grade dozuki side by side in the same precision work to tell the difference. It is huge. F1 versus minvan.

    I know what I am talking about when the subject is dozuki saws. I own and use saws that any tategushi or kumikozaiku-shi would lust after.

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 07-17-2016 at 6:59 AM.

  7. #22
    Many thanks, Stan! I have a 3" Arkansas stone in my ski tuning kit, but I'm not sure it would be easy to handle in this context. Would a ceramic waterstone like my Shapton Pros work (assuming thorough cleanup and re-oiling the saw afterward)? I understand that fluoride toothpaste isn't necessary, but would you recommend whitening toothpaste?

    I know that my main sawing issues are insufficient practice and plain old boneheaded impatience, but it's good to know there are ways to improve these saws if it comes to that.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenore Epstein View Post
    Many thanks, Stan! I have a 3" Arkansas stone in my ski tuning kit, but I'm not sure it would be easy to handle in this context. Would a ceramic waterstone like my Shapton Pros work (assuming thorough cleanup and re-oiling the saw afterward)? I understand that fluoride toothpaste isn't necessary, but would you recommend whitening toothpaste?

    I know that my main sawing issues are insufficient practice and plain old boneheaded impatience, but it's good to know there are ways to improve these saws if it comes to that.
    Lenore:

    Waterstones will not work at all. You need something very hard that the teeth will not dig into.

    3" is pretty short. 7" or even 8" would be much better. Make sure the edge of the stone that the teeth will first contact is rounded or beveled so it won't hang up.

    I suppose a really fine diamond plate would work too.

    Stan

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post



    I have a custom-made dozuki with 42ppi, and the sawsmith set the teeth with a hammer and anvil in a continuous series of hammer strikes, 3 or 4 minutes per side. When I asked, he said he doesn't even see the teeth anymore, just hits them. He files the teeth without bothering to look at them either.



    Stan
    Stanley - 42PPI? That makes my eyes hurt just reading that - - I am always amazed at Japanese Craftsmen - true masters in so many ways. Thanks for that -

    Dave B

  10. #25
    I like the fact that my hand is typically closer to the cutting edge when using Japanese saws but with the woods that I use in my shop and the need to have a robust saw that will eat about anything and can be sharpened in my shop I have sided with the western fare. The technique held me back from the western saw but I just practised and got the chops. I use the Japanese saws that I have for the occasional cut usually when making guitars. If they disappeared I would miss them each about once a year. YMMV as they say.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Beauchesne View Post
    Stanley - 42PPI? That makes my eyes hurt just reading that - - I am always amazed at Japanese Craftsmen - true masters in so many ways. Thanks for that -

    Dave B
    The teeth are very delicate, intended only for fine work in straight-grained softwoods such as hinoki cypress, cedar, paulownia, etc., and that without knots. Especially made for me for kumikozaiku in 1987, if I recall correctly, by a gentleman named Shibuki who has since gone to the big woodpile in the sky.

    The first time I used it was during a 3 week intensive training course in kumikozaiku in Saitama Prefecture that same year. The other guys there, including the instructors, were drooling over it.

    Stan

  12. #27
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    Thanks for your comments Stanley. The "professional" label was Lee Valley's, or the manufacturer's not mine. At the moment I am just trying to figure out a replacement for the Silky folding "Kataba", which is again the label from the LV store. I think Silky just calls it a dozuki.

    It has occurred to me that I might want to replace the saw I have with a better saw or two. I like Japanese saws and seem to be more accurate with them. They are easier to make room for too. I have been on a less is more program.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Thanks for your comments Stanley. The "professional" label was Le Valley's, or the manufacturers not mine. At the moment I am just trying to figure out a replacement for the Silky folding "Kataba", which is again the label from the LV store. I think Silky just calls it a dozuki.

    It has occurred to me that I might want to replace the saw I have with a better saw or two. I like Japanese saws and seem to be more accurate with them. They are easier to make room for too. I have been on a less is more program.
    I understood, Mike. Not sure everyone else did.

    I use both Western and Japanese saws. Each has its place and advantages. Now that I am living in Japan again, and can get sharpening services relatively easily, I find myself using Japanese saws most of the time. Most Japanese saws are designed for softwoods, which Japan has historically had in abundance. Wonderful woods. But oak or maple will mess up the teeth. I have a custom-forged matched set of crosscut and rip dozuki made especially for hardwoods, real hummers, as they say. My point is that you should develop your skills and experiment along the way until you find what works best for you. Of course, as I know, that is exactly what you are doing.

    A well-tuned Western saw can do just as good work as a Japanese saw for most applications. The exception is the fine work of the dozuki, especially cutting tenon shoulders, which dozuki means. Kumikozaiku is another application where the dozuki has no peers.

    I agree with the "less is more" philosophy in principle, but I like to experience a variety of quality tools too much to be satisfied when I find something better. And because the tools I buy nowadays are mostly custom made and frequently quite expensive, unlike Mr. Schwarz, I am not inclined to give them away just to keep the inventory small. I don't buy junk, used tools, or bargain tools to begin with. That just means that I have a core group of tools I can rely on, and others I use as well.

    Stan

  14. #29
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    Stan, just a quick thank you. I followed your directions explicitely and now I have an Gyoko (sp) dozuki which I can feel the plate barely touching the sidewalls in use. Considering it was probably not a very wise purchase initially as my research was limited and it left a large kerf which drove me nuts, I now have an acceptable saw instead of a waste of money. Two strokes per side and a scrubbing afterword left me with a straight, smooth line.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Bent View Post
    Stan, just a quick thank you. I followed your directions explicitely and now I have an Gyoko (sp) dozuki which I can feel the plate barely touching the sidewalls in use. Considering it was probably not a very wise purchase initially as my research was limited and it left a large kerf which drove me nuts, I now have an acceptable saw instead of a waste of money. Two strokes per side and a scrubbing afterword left me with a straight, smooth line.
    Paul:

    Glad to hear someone tried it. It really works, doesn't it.

    Good luck in all your righteous endeavors.

    Stan

    PS: Did you use minty fresh toothpaste, or whitening toothpaste?
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 01-21-2017 at 5:39 AM.

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