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Thread: Can I use solid wood for the top panels on this table?

  1. #1

    Can I use solid wood for the top panels on this table?

    Hey folks!

    I'm getting ready to start building the Wood Whisperer Guild gaming dining table. Youtube video summary here.

    I've watched all the project videos and read through all the notes. It's all solid wood (cherry in this case) except for the 3 top panels which are plywood veneered with shopmade cheer. He never mentions using solid wood for these panels and only ever talks about sheet material for them. Doesn't give any reasons as to why or what changes/gotchas you may need to make or look out for if you use solid wood instead. I can guess at the reasons that he uses sheet material but I'd rather hear your thoughts before saying any more there.

    I plan to make the table out of walnut and want to use solid walnut for the top panels if possible. My questions:

    1. Any reason I can't or shouldn't use solid walnut for these panels?
    2. If I do make them out of solid walnut, anything I should make sure and do or not do (to avoid much movement/buckling or other issues)?
    3. Should I domino and glue up 2 or 3 narrower pieces to make up the width of each panel? Or can I use 1 solid piece for each of the panels (~ 22" wide x 30" long)?

    I think those are all the questions I have at the moment.

  2. #2
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    I didn't look at the plans, but would assume wood movement is the reason.

  3. #3
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    Why not ask Marc his thoughts? If you bought the plans he offers to help (I think?)

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    Barry mixing plywood and solid wood together is usually bad practice. Because wood needs to shrink and expand.Plywood doesn't.

    I just looked at the video link and Marc uses plywood for the middle.
    If you use wood how will you leave room for it to move?
    Seems like wood makes things more complicated.

    Aj
    Last edited by Andrew Hughes; 07-23-2016 at 9:39 PM.

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    He uses plywood so he doesn't have to account for the seasonal wood movement in solid wood. You could use solid wood, but if you do you have to allow for the seasonal dimension changes that will occur across the width of the piece. Since the top panels sit in the recess, you could make them out of walnut. In the dry times of the year (winter) the panels will get slightly smaller in width, which shouldn't really be a problem. You will see a slightly larger gap between the panels and the ends of the table. Edge joints are the strongest wood joint you can make. No need for dominoes, dowels or biscuits for strength. Glue up narrow pieces 3-4" and alternate the growth rings up and down to minimize the seasonal cupping.
    Lee Schierer
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  6. #6
    Thanks Lee, that's helpful! So alternating growth rings will minimize cupping but it won't really do anything for expanding and contracting along the width of the pice is that correct? Is there not really a good way to minimize that as well?

    Andrew, I'm not sure what you mean. I am talking about using solid wood *instead* of plywood. There are a couple reason I want to do this. First, I just don't really like veneer and plywood and would rather use solid wood as much as possible. Plywood cheapens it a bit in my opinion. Also, I don't have the tools (drum sander and vacuum press system) ideal to do shop made veneer. I could, of course, buy walnut plywood but there are problems with store bought plywood, like really thin veneer that will be used for panels/leafs which will be handled a lot. I'd need/want to frame each plywood piece in solid wood (which Marc does for this project) to protect against that thin veneer but then I'd have a seam all the way around the frame because I wouldn't be putting shop made veneer over the entire thing. It's certainly doable, just not the look I'd like.

    Josh, I have reached out to him, just haven't heard back from him yet. Figured while I was waiting on his response I would get some advice and thoughts from the awesome people here!

    I guess since it looks like Geek Chic uses solid wood for their leafs/panels (eg. https://geek-chic-hq.myshopify.com/c...malist-deposit), I figured it was doable and not a totally bad idea. They are pretty much the place for gaming tables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Lyndon View Post
    Thanks Lee, that's helpful! So alternating growth rings will minimize cupping but it won't really do anything for expanding and contracting along the width of the pice is that correct? Is there not really a good way to minimize that as well?
    Alternating growth ring directions is a way to minimize the effects of cupping in plain sawn wood. If you can get quarter sawn it tends to cup less, but usually it is hard to find in Walnut. The only way to minimize the seasonal width changes is to finish all sides of the piece of wood equally. All that does is slow down the movement of moisture into and out of the wood so movement is less dramatic. You cannot stop the wood movement all completely.
    Lee Schierer
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    It's not unlike building 3 flush panel wood doors. Because it is a table I would be inclined to make the panels no less than 3/4" thick - preferably 7/8" with the rails & stiles an 1/8" thicker. The tenon of the panel can be spaced away from the rabbet walls with rubber space balls and you must be certain not to get glue in the corner of the panels as you glue up the frames. Also you will need a bit of clearance from the edge of the panels to the rails and stiles. You see in the opening shot of the video that there is a reveal between his frame and panel - looks to be about 1/16" but with solid wood you could bump this up to 1/8".

    As I see it - this reveal is the only down side as now you have gaps all around the table perimeter and intermediate frames that will allow the accumulation of debris - dust, potato chip crumbles, exuberant beer splashes etc. Perhaps - if you are good with a caulking gun you could lay in a bead of clear silicone caulking - kept just below the surface. With the dark walnut this would be nearly invisible. Don't know that I'd like it though but I do believe that the solid wood top would hold up better than a 10ml veneer. Might try a sample before you decide.

    And not to be contrary - just sharing - I have never bothered with alternating growth rings. I simply lay out my boards to look right and make certain that they are all properly flattened before glue up.
    Last edited by Sam Murdoch; 07-24-2016 at 8:54 AM.
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    Ya your right Barry my post was not clear.I was having a sugar buzz as I working on a pile of killer watermelon.
    Anyways this is one of those time were Plywood is a better choice.
    If you use wood the top will most likely warp.
    The good news is it looks like you can add a plywood tops later.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Schierer View Post
    Alternating growth ring directions is a way to minimize the effects of cupping in plain sawn wood. If you can get quarter sawn it tends to cup less, but usually it is hard to find in Walnut. The only way to minimize the seasonal width changes is to finish all sides of the piece of wood equally. All that does is slow down the movement of moisture into and out of the wood so movement is less dramatic. You cannot stop the wood movement all completely.
    Ah, I didn't even think about using quarter sawn. I have a place locally that I can get 4/4 quarter sawn. A couple quick results from a google search tells me that quarter sawn seasonal movement is about half of flat sawn so I think this is a great way to go. It'll be a little more expensive but I think I'll go with quarter sawn for the top and flat sawn for the rest of the table.

    Worse comes to worse, if the top moves too much and ends up not working out a few months (or years) down the line, it's simple enough to just make new panes for the top out of plywood. Maybe by that time I'll have the ideal tools to do shop made veneer for it.

    Thanks for the great idea Lee!

    Sam, I'm going to need to re read your post a few times to fully understand. When you start talking about making the rails and stiles 1/8" thicker, are you talking about using plywood for the tops or solid wood? And 1/8" thicker than what? And I'm even more confused because the top panels aren't using rail and stiles (just a simple rabbet to "connect" the panels). Or are you talking about making a door at this point? Sorry, I want to understand your advice, I'm just not following.

    Andrew, I'm sure you're right that plywood is the better choice but you're also right that if I have issues I can always do plywood tops later so I think I'll try solid wood first and see how it goes.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Lyndon View Post
    Ah, I didn't even think about using quarter sawn. I have a place locally that I can get 4/4 quarter sawn. A couple quick results from a google search tells me that quarter sawn seasonal movement is about half of flat sawn so I think this is a great way to go. It'll be a little more expensive but I think I'll go with quarter sawn for the top and flat sawn for the rest of the table.

    Worse comes to worse, if the top moves too much and ends up not working out a few months (or years) down the line, it's simple enough to just make new panes for the top out of plywood. Maybe by that time I'll have the ideal tools to do shop made veneer for it.

    Thanks for the great idea Lee!

    Sam, I'm going to need to re read your post a few times to fully understand. When you start talking about making the rails and stiles 1/8" thicker, are you talking about using plywood for the tops or solid wood? And 1/8" thicker than what? And I'm even more confused because the top panels aren't using rail and stiles (just a simple rabbet to "connect" the panels). Or are you talking about making a door at this point? Sorry, I want to understand your advice, I'm just not following.

    Andrew, I'm sure you're right that plywood is the better choice but you're also right that if I have issues I can always do plywood tops later so I think I'll try solid wood first and see how it goes.
    I see in the video that the top (plywood and veneer) is one field surrounded by a frame. My suggestion was too build the top as you would 3 flush panel doors. So the top would look as if it is three frames and three panels - or possibly as three panels within a frame that has 2 outside stiles, 2 intermediate stiles and then 2 long rails. The latter option makes removing the top panel a bit less convenient as it would be one large heavy piece. This as a solution to building this very top all of solid wood. I would make the inner playing surface plywood - no good reason to do otherwise. It would require an entire redesign to build it all of solid wood.

    In order to do this you need to not confuse his plywood top construction with my solid wood suggestion. My idea would be to build a stile and rail frame system with the panels - this assembly (the solid panels and frames "doors") would then be let into "his" bridle joint outer frame. They would "float" and be removable as he shows with his design.

    If this explanation is still muddy I might be able to do a sketch for you to clarify.
    "... for when we become in heart completely poor, we at once are the treasurers & disbursers of enormous riches."
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Murdoch View Post
    I see in the video that the top (plywood and veneer) is one field surrounded by a frame. My suggestion was too build the top as you would 3 flush panel doors. So the top would look as if it is three frames and three panels - or possibly as three panels within a frame that has 2 outside stiles, 2 intermediate stiles and then 2 long rails. The latter option makes removing the top panel a bit less convenient as it would be one large heavy piece. This as a solution to building this very top all of solid wood. I would make the inner playing surface plywood - no good reason to do otherwise. It would require an entire redesign to build it all of solid wood.

    In order to do this you need to not confuse his plywood top construction with my solid wood suggestion. My idea would be to build a stile and rail frame system with the panels - this assembly (the solid panels and frames "doors") would then be let into "his" bridle joint outer frame. They would "float" and be removable as he shows with his design.

    If this explanation is still muddy I might be able to do a sketch for you to clarify.
    Okay, this makes sense. Something I'll definitely look into. However, I'm still curious how Geek Chic is getting away with making their panels/leaves out of solid wood without any issues. Theirs look pretty much like just straight up boards glued together to make up the leaves with no frame, rail and stile, etc...

    Here are some examples of what I'm talking about. I like this look best and would like to do this if possible. Are they possibly using some other tricks to account for or get rid of the movement?
    example 1
    example 2
    example 3
    example 4

    Their product pages specifically say "Hardwood Leaves (Length-Wise)". I assume that means solid hardwood leaves right? I wouldn't think they would say that if they were plywood with veneer. They don't look like veneer in the pictures and videos.

    I really appreciate all the help and advice and suggestions. You're all helping me understand the different options and why Marc chose to do this the way he did. I'm just seeing someone (Geek Chic) who seems to be doing it the way I want to do it and am trying to figure out how/why they are doing it that way.

    Edit: Ah, just found this video. It looks like they are using some kind of spring tensioning system to allow for expansion and contraction. Not sure if that would be over my head and out of my skill range or not. I'll start playing around in the shop in the next couple days and see if I can figure something out. I like working with magnets, maybe I can do something with magnets repelling to mimic a spring.
    Last edited by Barry Lyndon; 07-25-2016 at 2:57 AM.

  13. #13
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    Thinking about this after I wrote my reply last night I realized that I had made it too complicated. I thought "why not just make up solid wood panels?" My answer was - no problem. The length wise tenoned planks as in the video or even 3 or 4 sections with the grain running perpendicular to the length (no rails and stiles). Those sections too could be tenoned to fit into each other. The spring tensioners could just be ball catches (the ball part without the catch). Those come in a variety of sizes. I did wonder about how to remove the first plank but both the Wood Whisperer and the Geek Chic table you refer to have figured that out - you can too. The secret to success with this is FLAT stock and allowance for seasonal movement. 1/4 sawn lumber would be an advantage though I think you might need to cull through quite a few walnut boards to find enough such sawn planks.
    "... for when we become in heart completely poor, we at once are the treasurers & disbursers of enormous riches."
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Murdoch View Post
    Thinking about this after I wrote my reply last night I realized that I had made it too complicated. I thought "why not just make up solid wood panels?" My answer was - no problem. The length wise tenoned planks as in the video or even 3 or 4 sections with the grain running perpendicular to the length (no rails and stiles). Those sections too could be tenoned to fit into each other. The spring tensioners could just be ball catches (the ball part without the catch). Those come in a variety of sizes. I did wonder about how to remove the first plank but both the Wood Whisperer and the Geek Chic table you refer to have figured that out - you can too. The secret to success with this is FLAT stock and allowance for seasonal movement. 1/4 sawn lumber would be an advantage though I think you might need to cull through quite a few walnut boards to find enough such sawn planks.
    Nice idea on the ball catch! That's probably the way I'll go.

    One more question (maybe). You mention tenoned planks - is there a reason to do tenoned planks rather than a rabbet to "connect" the 3 panels together like on Marc's panels? I realize you may not have seen/known Marc was using rabbets from the summary video but that's what he's doing and provides lots of instruction and tips on.

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    I do think that solid wood panels are fine for this application as long as you properly account for seasonal expansion. I think having the removable planks being oriented lengthwise (longest top dimension) makes the most sense for this so as to minimize the seasonal change effect on the top. I also think that having a tongue and groove joint to connect the panels side by side is far preferable to just the rabbet method as this will help control (a little) any propensity of the top panels to warp (big concern with planks made from solid lumber as compared to plywood). The spring feature is a nice thing!

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