What You Should Be Learning

[Robert Engel]

My wife and I like to stay in Bed and Breakfasts, especially in historic towns, mostly because of the architecture and furniture.

Of course within 5 minutes I'm pulling out drawers, examining carving, looking a the back of the furniture, etc.

As a newbie compared to many of you, I was initially surprised (shocked?) to find saw marks for 1/2 blinds extending 6" into the drawer fronts but this was a common practice the apprentice were expected to pound these out or hit the street. Also lots of nails (more than I ever figured), lots of plane marks on the show surfaces. Then I see Phil Lowe actually trying to duplicate this in a piece he demonstrates.

Its funny we obsess over dovetails when they were actually pretty sloppily done on most drawers, approved by a master.

I obsess over dovetails a lot less than I used to. My reasoning is I want it to look like a human did it, but not a caveman

Lots of info in this thread I appreciate it. I've found the golden ratio doesn't always appeal to me, especially with drawers. Thank you for making me aware of the root 2 square now if I can only figure out how to calculate the nth root.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Robert

That is fine for the time when you are attempting to reproduce a piece from that era, and want to be "authentic" in the build. The trouble is that some then take this as a rule about dovetails for all eras, and that introduces the notion that it is acceptable to be sloppy. "Sloppy" by the standards of those that aspire to create furniture as per current high end standards, that is.

Dovetails are not any more revered than any other joint, except they are visible where, for example, a mortice-and-tenon is not. I believe that we should aim to do the best we can, and this includes dovetails. However that applies to the type of furniture I aspire to build.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Mind you, there were fast builds at the time as well, so regardless of when it came from there were levels of quality. I have my doubts that having the cuts extend 6" into the drawer front happened on top end builds. I had the chance to inspect Louis XV's famous desk up close, with except to pulling drawers out and so forth, there is absolutely nothing slap-dash about a piece like that. I think there is a failure in assuming all things are done a certain way at a certain time period.

[Pat Barry]

I think there is a failure in assuming all things are done a certain way at a certain time period.

+1 - this is true regarding all forms of art, furniture, construction, etc. For example, I think America reached the (whats the term for opposite of pinnacle) in the early 70's in terms of quality. Everything seems to be junky from that era (that I lived through). For example houses - basically slapped together without thought for energy consumption. - lousy materials (particle board flooring), little or no insulation in walls or attics, crappy sheetrock and pebble sprayed ceilings - it goes on an on. But I'm sure that there were lots of nice homes, probably expensive, that were built well (not that I have seen though). Don't even start talking about cars and trucks quality. Everything plastic was junk from that period. Now quality is expected and products are better built, better engineered, better designed.

[george wilson]

Oh come on, Pat. You know you loved the leisure suit!! You were really into those bell bottom pants!!! I refused to wear those,or any of the foolish "styles" that have come along over the years.

In regard to building houses in the 70's, I thought that was the way houses were made today! There is a whole area,called "Newtown" here,made of cardboard houses. Chips glued together! It is depressing to drive through it,but many doctors have moved there to get lower rent,so I have to. It just keeps spreading and spreading. I wonder how long it will take for the siding on those houses to start coming apart.

Brian: I am sure you are correct. The illiterate country carpenter putting together a blanket chest from yellow pine (like the 18th. C. one in my bedroom,), and painting it green, could not be expected to know much, if anything about the finest cabinet makers. He did not have the Chippendale book to go by. Even if he did, (but even ordinary non illustrated books cost about $2,000 in today's money) the chance that he understood it was nil.

In fact, I'd bet that only the finest cabinet shops engaged in using classical proportions. Only they served the most educated and wealthy and DISCERNING class.

In Italy and Greece,there are plenty of very, very old houses In Venice, there are plenty of buildings that are very old. St. Michaels cathedral is 1000 years old. Most do not follow a classical plan. I'm sure that in ancient Greece, common dwellings or small shops were just built with no thought of classical proportions. But then, the cream of the crop, the parthenon, designed by the finest architect was built to the highest aspirations of great Greek thinkers, to show the World what Greece could accomplish. And,to please the God Athena, who it was dedicated to. This building was even astronomically aligned. BTW,the Greek government is trying to restore it. But,with their economy being in a terrible state,that restoration may take a very long time, if it is ever accomplished.

The same thing really happens today: The great public buildings and monuments of larger cities are built to much higher standards of architecture and materials than the common dwellings.

BTW: I used to accuse the cabinet makers of making squirrel furniture(Chip and Dale).

[Joe Tilson]

Is this why some furniture is tipping over in today's world? I remember climbing such as a child and it didn't tip over on me.
Bad design or bad proportions? Hope this is in line with the discussion.

[george wilson]

Google "Z chair images" (ignore the ones with cushions) to see something famous and REALLY UGLY!! Just a letter Z with a vertical back. And,this was considered worthy of design awards? Some people need to have their heads examined!!

[Brian Holcombe]

People will have to retain higher standards. I walked through new high end home construction project recently and was impressed by comparison to the typical 'high end home construction' I had been used to seeing. There was actually metal ductwork (rather than long runs of flex-duct), the mechanicals seemed planned and orderly. The finish work was meh, but then the homeowners brought their own finish carpenter in to remove and replace all of it with good work.

So, it provided a little glimmer of hope that quality may be on the upswing in some pockets of the country.

There are always standouts, I agree George public buildings are a great example as they're usually built to high quality standards.

Pat, In this area most of the Mid-Century through even the 70's houses are quite nice, but they're not exactly Stahl House! In fact Koenig would probably think they are slap-dash, but I've seen I-beams spanning the length of plain mid-century houses, but never after that unless they were put there after the fact.

As a craftsman I think quality standards for items like tools are generally very high and accessible.

[Mel Fulks]

There are quite a number of those proportion systems. Even on things like "classical architecture" there are a bunch. Some insist on "comensurate" others "incomensurate" even though most of us would have a hard time seeing the difference. Over time some of the terms change. For example it's not unusual to see an architect describe something like a broken pediment as "Palladian". Palladio hated the idea and never used it. A basic idea can lead to seeing things a different way as when the Adam brothers brought big changes to interiors by pointing out that exterior architectural details had been inappropriatly used in interiors. What brought it to attention was the discovery of Pompeii. To me the most useful popular rectangle is the "golden mean" as it is the source of the drawer graduation of height times 1.273 to get next drawer height. Giving a double ratio. Consistant ratio with adjascent
drawers and a consistant ratio on even number drawers and uneven numbered drawers. Sometimes you come up with your own rules that clients all find agreeable. Once when I had to make some elliptical cased openings I noticed that the dimensions on one were flatter than what I had determined by experience to "work". Found out there were 2 more inches of room that could be used and prevailed on the boss to get owners permission to do so. After some weeks I asked him if the client had commented and thanked him. He said, "yeah,..twice". But many of you already know about bosses. Got to
add that the ellipse ratio was no flatter than many seen in "fine" homes....somebody else needs to fix them!

[Patrick Chase]

For example, I think America reached the (whats the term for opposite of pinnacle) in the early 70's in terms of quality.

I think the word you're looking for is "nadir".

[Pat Barry]

To me the most useful popular rectangle is the "golden mean" as it is the source of the drawer graduation of height times 1.273 to get next drawer height. Giving a double ratio. Consistant ratio with adjascent drawers and a consistant ratio on even number drawers and uneven numbered drawers.

Just to be nit picky, the golden mean / ratio is 1.618xxx. 1.273 is actually the square root of the golden mean. Now it might be that the square root of the golden mean is actually a better ratio for rectangles??

Just for fun, sketched up below are three rectangles, lets call them 1.273, 1.618, and 2. Which looks better? To me, they are all just rectangles and I can see no best one.

rectangle.JPG

[Mel Fulks]

Pat, you are right about the square root. I said source and did not elaborate. Even as I small child I recognized that graduation ,years before knowing anything about it.

[Jim Koepke]

Which looks better? To me, they are all just rectangles and I can see no best one.

rectangle.JPG

Often it isn't the knowing of why something appears to be better proportioned, it is just having a feeling for proportion.

All of these would likely work for a bookshelf, cabinet or dresser. The one in the center does look better proportioned to me.

To each their own. If the general public is paying big money for junk, then the business to be in is selling junk to the general public.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

I think what's pleasing is culturally contextual. My Western ear, for example, likes music that conforms to certain interval rules, cycles of beats, and tension/resolution. Classical Indian music doesn't follow these patterns. Where a lot of that doesn't appeal to me, my immigrant parents and their contemporaries have a visceral connection to it.

I think what the mind likes is patterns. Our mind likes what's familiar. Patterns make things familiar. But what feels like a pattern to different groups of people may be different both with culture and time.

This is why (thanks Malcolm Gladwell) we tend to love the music when we were 19 and 20 and everything before and after sounds like c**p.

[Steve Voigt]

Just for fun, sketched up below are three rectangles, lets call them 1.273, 1.618, and 2. Which looks better? To me, they are all just rectangles and I can see no best one.

rectangle.JPG

This is a nonsensical question. It's like asking "what note sounds better, B-flat or F-sharp?". Notes only have meaning in relation to other notes, and proportions in furniture (among other things) only have meaning in context.