sharpening: a simple hypothesis.

[bridger berdel]

and by no means comprehensive

in a nutshell: the greater the angular difference between bevels the less honing time needed, or the greater the jump in grits feasible.


so, if you wish to hone a flat bevel with no microbevel you will spend lots of time honing at the finer grits, just polishing the bevel. it looks great but puts unnecessary wear on your stones and your elbows.

if you start with a really low primary bevel you can probably jump straight to your finishing stone. kind of crude looking and perhaps a bit fragile.

use a really high microbevel and the time on the finish stone will be minimized but the chisel may not perform well for paring despite being sharp.

[Jim Koepke]

To me this seems more of an opinion than fact.

Often for me there is a very quick touch up of the bevel on my 1000 stone to remove a nick or better define the bevel. A few strokes on my 4000 stone and then a few more on my 8000 stone. One time when going directly to the 8000 from the 1000, removing the burr left a scratch on the 8000.

If the blade just needs a touch up, it is 4000 then 8000. Usually the few steps from the bench to the stones, then from the stones to the strop and then back to the bench takes longer than the time spent on the stones. My oil stones may take a bit longer.

Maybe there is time saved by not having to use a honing guide when working a flat bevel freehand.

Of course, I am usually not in a race to see how fast something can be sharpened.

Besides, when the secondary bevel grows over time it is like honing a single flat bevel.

Flat bevel, hollow ground bevel, back bevel, secondary bevel, tertiary bevels, convex bevels ad infinitum, what ever works for the individual is the best way to proceed.

When an edged tool isn't working to do what is wanted of it when it is time to look for another way.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and none of them call for a dull blade.

jtk

[george wilson]

For PETE'S SAKE. NOT another SHARPENING THREAD. Give it up guys. Just learn how to use your tools!! Those sharp tools aren't going to jump up and make masterpieces all by themselves.

I just watched a video of a guy who cut a pretty decent mortise through a 6" log with a STONE AXE. And I don't mean FANCY stone like obsidian or flint. I mean plain old gray stone.

[Rob Luter]

Is there anyone else who finds it remarkable to hear stone axe and video in the same post?

[Andrew Hughes]

I see you point Rob.
Almost as unbelievable as a antique digital grandfather clock.

Aj

[Luke Dupont]

For PETE'S SAKE. NOT another SHARPENING THREAD. Give it up guys. Just learn how to use your tools!! Those sharp tools aren't going to jump up and make masterpieces all by themselves.

I just watched a video of a guy who cut a pretty decent mortise through a 6" log with a STONE AXE. And I don't mean FANCY stone like obsidian or flint. I mean plain old gray stone.

And someone didn't like my crappy mild-steel chisel
It got me back to work quickly and accomplished its task, though!

I do share your sentiment, but I think there's something to be said for learning and exploring different facets of a particular subject in-depth. I've learned quite a bit about both sharpening media and steel from these discussions. It's better to get a broad/more complete understanding of something than to just blindly subscribe to/follow popular trends, in my opinion. As an experienced person, I'm sure all these discussions seem kind of silly to you, and maybe they are, but there those of us still exploring these things for the first time. In the end, it doesn't matter as long as you can get back to work with sharp tools efficiently, but I do think that spending the time to explore different media and methods is good, because you might find a method/media that suits you better than the one you had previously subscribed to, and you might even learn a thing or two in the long term.

By the way! I'm interested in the stone chisel/axe video. Link please?

[Pat Barry]

For PETE'S SAKE. NOT another SHARPENING THREAD. Give it up guys. Just learn how to use your tools!! Those sharp tools aren't going to jump up and make masterpieces all by themselves.

I just watched a video of a guy who cut a pretty decent mortise through a 6" log with a STONE AXE. And I don't mean FANCY stone like obsidian or flint. I mean plain old gray stone.

So George, since this is a sharpening thread, did this fellow go into detail as to his stone axe sharpening methods? Were they in accordance with the theory offered in this thread? I'm lost as to why you went so far off topic.

[Karl Fife]

If you've ever seen David Charlesworth's sharpening videos, you'll notice that he takes a moment to increase the honing angle slightly between stones. This saves time removing metal because the next stone only contacts the very edge of the blade, not the entire plane left by the previous stone. This saves time. David's method is essentially a more refined version of what you're hypothesizing here. You owe it to yourself to watch his sharpening videos. His instruction is absolutely without equal (IMHO).

[Luke Dupont]

I do want to address the original point by saying that there is no best method. It depends on your tools, your sharpening media, the kind of geometry you're after, etc. etc.

Japanese tools are easy to sharpen the entire bevel, because they're laminated to a soft back. So why not keep things simple?

How about if you hollow ground, or sharpen in a cambered fashion, or with a convex bevel? How about the person who starts on a coarser stone as opposed to a finer one?

What kind of steel are you using? What media are you sharpening with? Are you using a jig, or free hand? What's your work-space like? Are you using waterstones, oil-stones, diamonds, a strop? Do you need to do any presoaking or flattening of yourstones before getting to work? Do you mind doing that stuff? What is your personal preference and is most enjoyable for you? What fits your work flow?

Ultimately, many of these things are so subjective as to hardly be worth arguing over. Someone might be convinced that hollow ground is the way to go, for instance, but does that mean I should go out and buy a big grinder to lug around, try to find a place for in a closet somewhere, and get out every time I have to use it because I work in an apartment without a dedicated work space?

There's no one-size fits all approach.

[george wilson]

Sorry. I should have said nothing. If you all want to re discuss sharpening again and again, it is up to you. That is where your heads are,I suppose. (Well,obviously they are,or the subject would not keep cropping up!)

[steven c newman]

One rule might apply to sharpening... K.I. S., S.

And by keeping things simple, you can get back to work sooner, less errors creep into the process, Your hands and arms get used to doing the same things over and over, almost habit forming. Then, you can find other things to over-think about.

Saw a gal walking into the store today....T-shirt read " Gym Hair, and I don't care" maybe mine would read....Shoptime, and I don't care...

Too much OCD about getting the perfect edge......

[allen long]

Quick question. When folks here refer to a micro bevel, is this the same thing as a secondary bevel or a something else like a tertiary bevel? (And yes I am asking because I honestly don't know )

[bridger berdel]

It looks like some of you thought that I was making a qualitative judgement of some kind. I wasn't

[david charlesworth]

Thanks Karl.

Allen,

you can see my chisel sharpening method on You Tube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un-DVvXnCeA

I think I use a tertiary bevel for the 8 or 10,000 grit polishing stone!

The routine is ; grind at 25 degrees, get a small wire edge at 33 degrees on an 8oogrit stone, Shorten the projection by about 2 mm, and polish the tip at 35 degrees. (This is for Japanese and A2 chisels).

The slight change of angle means only three or four polishing strokes.

The 800 bevel is kept narrow and I regrind about every 7-10 sharpenings.

I think Bridger has a reasonable theory.

best wishes,

David

[bridger berdel]

Sorry. I should have said nothing. If you all want to re discuss sharpening again and again, it is up to you. That is where your heads are,I suppose. (Well,obviously they are,or the subject would not keep cropping up!)

I don't know what it is about sharpening that gets so much attention. It probably has something to do with the universality of it- every craftsperson, whether a chef or a surgeon or a woodworker needs sharp tools. sharpening takes time, which means it either takes your attention away from the "work" or it becomes the work.


I teach sharpening at the local woodcraft. I encourage keeping the time spent sharpening to a minimum and staying focused on the woodworking. getting too focused on the sharpening will take you down a rabbit hole with no bottom.

do as I say, not as I do