Plane Order for Dimensioning Boards

[Patrick Chase]

Are you often flamed? Your posts are generally very informative for me.....

Nah, SMC is a pretty friendly environment all things considered.

I said that because both the value of hand-roughing and the tools one should use to do it are an area of even wider-than-usual divergence of opinion. You can see that really clearly in Jim's responses: I evaluated hand-roughing in purely woodworking terms (basically: does it deliver any benefit in terms of the final work relative to machine) while he took a more holistic view that includes things like physical fitness and spending time with the grandkids. IMO both are equally right, it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Bite your tongue... well, just a little bit anyway.

It may not take much skill, but I find that I have struggled with getting a nice flat surface using just my hand planes. I do some things well but sadly, this is not one of them. If you lived closer (and if I had more time), I would show up with some sort of bribe and ask for lessons. I have certainly been known to knock down the most serious high spots using a scrub plane before I use my sled to joint one face in my surface planer (since I don't own a powered jointer).

I will also admit that it has been a long time (years) since I did try to do one by hand so perhaps my skills have improved. I was very new to this and was probably working on my one of my first projects. I vaguely remember that I had some pretty deep grooves left from my scrub plane so I was having trouble finding a balance between puling a workable shaving and taking off enough to get to the bottom of the groove that I had created. In retrospect, I probably needed to take a shallower cut with the scrub (or something). If my memory is correct, I think that I spent a week of evenings surfacing a single board. That was probably 10 years ago.

Been there, done that. That's one of the reasons I've come to prefer a jack or fore with 6-12" of camber (depending on how much material I'm removing) to the scrub. The jack takes somewhat shallower-but-wider cuts, which makes it less prone to "overcutting" such as you describe, but still round enough to be productive for roughing. I also like the extra length of the jack/fore, as it's less prone to follow dips in the workpiece.

Of course you can always set the scrub to take shallower cuts, but then productivity suffers because the cut volume is reduced.

Mr. Chase expands on this in his next response. I purchased a scrub because i thought that I had to have one and I got a good deal on one used here on the creek. I find that I really like it when I knock off high spots, but if I had a properly cambered blade in one of my #5 planes, it would likely do just as good of a job. The only advantages to the scrub is probably that the blade is very narrow and the throat is completely open. This makes it easy to cut deep thick shavings. The disadvantage is that it is easy to take deep thick shavings.

Yeah, the wide-open throat is definitely a plus, and IMO narrow/deep cuts are the most efficient way to hog off lots of material. I think that I give up a little bit of speed with the jack, but not enough to be a huge concern.

[Prashun Patel]

Patrick Cox,

Going back to your original question, you are starting out 'correctly'. A scrub may have its uses, but IMHO, it's not necessary *if* you decide you don't wish to joint and thickness thick boards regularly. The debate about the merit of this activity is moot. If, like me, you have determined the rough dimensioning to be a sometimes-treat, then you may be able to get by with a jack and perhaps a specialized blade (cambered so it can take thick cuts with minimal effort) for it.

I do suggest (you'll get other suggestions more valid than mine) that you begin your journey from the finish end backwards. Use power or purchase power to get stock that's mostly surfaced and close to the right thickness you need; go from not-so-rough to ready.

Once you're comfortable with these planes and their blades, then consider expanding towards the rougher side. There, I'd personally get a jointer before a scrub. Some never make it to scrub.

(off topic, soap box alert): Just remember there are shades of Neander, and while there is a perceived scorn for being hybrid to any degree, that perception exists only in the mind of the insecure.

Last, scrub planes tend to come up for sale in the Classifieds here more than others - even 'premium' ones like LN or Veritas. And, they tend to sell for considerably less than some of the other bench planes. This may tell you something about their utility and demand, and may inform the timing of your own purchase.

[Kees Heiden]

Ok, now I am safely back at home: The German Schruphobel. (Or scrubplane).

ece42a.jpg

First a little bit of history. The German dictionary from 1714: Curieuses und Reales Natur-, Kunst-, Berg-, Gewerck- und Handlungs-Lexicon.


They talk about the Schuerffhobel. This is described as the usual German planes with the horn at the front. The cutting edge is said to be rounded while the sole is flat. They don't give sizes but remarkably, the next entry is the Schlichthobel for smoothing which is said to be larger! Because nowadays all German planes, except the jointer, are the same length, this is an indication that the Schuerffhobel was a smaller, especially narrower, plane with a heavilly cambered iron used for very rough work. A bit like the more modern German Schrupphobel.

My Schrupphobel has the same size as a Stanley #40. 9 1/2" long with a 1 1/4" wide blade. It's made of wood of course and has the very convenient horn at the front. The very narrow width combined with the very agressive camber (radius about 3") make it a great little plane to remove wood in a hurry, across the grain. With the grain I don't really like it, it's much harder to push and tends to dig in all the time. The resultant surface is awfull. To get an idea, have a look at this older video from me, thicknessing a large wallnut board. Working like this across the grain looks like hard and sweaty work but it isn't that bad and it is very quick. At the end of the video you can see what it does to your board. As you can see the scallops are deep, and it is easy to go too deep, and damage more then you like, when only a moderate amount of wood needs to be removed.



In relatively modern times the German tool box contains these planes:
Schrupphobel for really agressive work, 32 mm wide iron.
Schlichthobel, wider (48 mm usually), single iron, usually used like an English jackplane
Doppelhobel or the Reform hobel, Both are smoothing planes, the latter has a 49 degree bedding angle. Both have a chipbreaker and have a 48 mm wide straight(ish) blade.
Raubank, The German jointer.

BTW, The Stanley #40 has almost the same dimensions as my Schrupphobel. Made of steel, so it is heavier of course. Single iron, 1 1/4"wide. I don't know how Stanley introduced this plane in 1896, but in the 1902 catalogue it is simply menioned as a scrubplane for rough work before using a jack or other plane. No mention about some specific trade or job. My idea is that is was introduced for the many German imigrants who could be pursuaded to trade their old wooden Schrupphobel for a real American made steel version!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Not to be contrary, but I can't recall a lot of scrub planes coming up in the classifieds, at least not recently. I do see a number of regular bench planes though. Some of them don't always seem to fly off the shelves.

And the "scorn" thing comes from all kinds of folks, and I think has more to do with the person than the tools they have. Some hybrid people seem to think people are wasting time to flatten or square stock by hand.

That said, I think Prashun is giving good advice. I started out building stuff in my kitchen or dining room with what I could get from Home Depot. Their S4S stuff kept me busy for a good while, sawing, chiseling, and then cleaning things up a little bit with a smooth plane. I think that is a good way to get your feet wet. Starting with a rough board, and trying to flatten, square, diagnose issues with planes, diagnose issues with your technique, and then finally build something is sort of like jumping in the deep end for your first swimming lesson. It might work out all right, but I could see how a lot of people might get frustrated and just take up golf.

For me, after a while I got tired of the limited stock selection at Home Depot (not so tired I wanted to pay Woodcraft prices) and started looking for other options. Flattening and squaring rough lumber with a jointer and jack just took forever. Working in a basement without the option of throwing something on the tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, or planer, to get it flat and square, and the size I want, the No. 40 was a game changer. I can take a much thicker cut with a No. 40. It is as simple as that. If I remove the same material with a jack, it might take me ten strokes to one with the scrub. When you are dealing with larger material, those extra strokes add up quickly.

Now again, I think Prashun's advice is good. I don't think everybody should run out and buy a scrub for their first plane or three. I think the smoother on S4S or S2S lumber is a good place to start. But, if the OP gets down the road a little bit and wants to wade a little deeper in the lumber stack without spending all weekend planing, and without buying a bunch of power tools, he should keep in the back of his mind that there is a thing called a scrub, and they used to make them for a reason.

[Skip Helms]

You can do everything you need with a #5 jack plane on that stock. You'll get your boards down to size, learn how to setup and use the plane and see for yourself where you can improve next time. If you really want, throw in a #4 or #3 smoother to get the surface just right. I actually just bought this plane for 12 hours:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sargent-No-4...sAAOSwbsBXm6iC

He listed it accidentally as a 408 he was also selling and sent me the wrong one. I sent it back and got the correct unit. I should have kept it. Better than any of the #4 sizes I have but I didn't need another one. If you can get that for $35, you'll be halfway there. sh

[Thomas Schneider]

Hi Patrick,

Do you have a local woodworking club or perhaps a friend who might have a scrub plane you can call on and maybe use without the expense of buying one. And maybe get a little lesson using one too!

[Stanley Covington]

Ok, now I am safely back at home: The German Schruphobel. (Or scrubplane).

ece42a.jpg

First a little bit of history. The German dictionary from 1714: Curieuses und Reales Natur-, Kunst-, Berg-, Gewerck- und Handlungs-Lexicon.


They talk about the Schuerffhobel. This is described as the usual German planes with the horn at the front. The cutting edge is said to be rounded while the sole is flat. They don't give sizes but remarkably, the next entry is the Schlichthobel for smoothing which is said to be larger! Because nowadays all German planes, except the jointer, are the same length, this is an indication that the Schuerffhobel was a smaller, especially narrower, plane with a heavilly cambered iron used for very rough work. A bit like the more modern German Schrupphobel.

My Schrupphobel has the same size as a Stanley #40. 9 1/2" long with a 1 1/4" wide blade. It's made of wood of course and has the very convenient horn at the front. The very narrow width combined with the very agressive camber (radius about 3") make it a great little plane to remove wood in a hurry, across the grain. With the grain I don't really like it, it's much harder to push and tends to dig in all the time. The resultant surface is awfull. To get an idea, have a look at this older video from me, thicknessing a large wallnut board. Working like this across the grain looks like hard and sweaty work but it isn't that bad and it is very quick. At the end of the video you can see what it does to your board. As you can see the scallops are deep, and it is easy to go too deep, and damage more then you like, when only a moderate amount of wood needs to be removed.



In relatively modern times the German tool box contains these planes:
Schrupphobel for really agressive work, 32 mm wide iron.
Schlichthobel, wider (48 mm usually), single iron, usually used like an English jackplane
Doppelhobel or the Reform hobel, Both are smoothing planes, the latter has a 49 degree bedding angle. Both have a chipbreaker and have a 48 mm wide straight(ish) blade.
Raubank, The German jointer.

BTW, The Stanley #40 has almost the same dimensions as my Schrupphobel. Made of steel, so it is heavier of course. Single iron, 1 1/4"wide. I don't know how Stanley introduced this plane in 1896, but in the 1902 catalogue it is simply menioned as a scrubplane for rough work before using a jack or other plane. No mention about some specific trade or job. My idea is that is was introduced for the many German imigrants who could be pursuaded to trade their old wooden Schrupphobel for a real American made steel version!

Thank you Kees. Excellent and informative writeup and video.

Do you find the horn at the front easier to apply force to than the Stanley/Bailey style with the handle at the back?

Of the various styles of scrub planes you have used, which style do you prefer?

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

I don't have tried a wide varity of scrubplanes, but this one is a lot more agressive then any of my jackplanes, with 8-10" camber. In the project above, removing a ton of wood, it was a life saver, but for the smaller scale projects I worked on after that it was really too much.

I sure do like the German horned planes, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. I like the Stanleys too. At the moment I am into English style wooden planes that don't have a front handle at all and I like them too. It needs a bit of getting used to how to grasp with the front handle though.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

As you can see the scallops are deep, and it is easy to go too deep, and damage more then you like, when only a moderate amount of wood needs to be removed.

Yep, I have done that....

I really should configure a #5 for rougher work and then I can progress from my Lie Nielsen Scrub to the #5 while trying hard to not take overly deep cuts with my scrub.

Hand planes are not my strength. Pretty sure the problem is me and not my tools; sadly.

[Skip Helms]

Patrick, I may be inviting some flames here but the 8/4 boards you show in the picture shouldn't take more than 10-minutes a side with any decent plane. If there are 20 more of them out-of-frame maybe you get more specialized. You certainly don't need a scrubber for mill-sawn stock -- unless it is really warped. Yours doesn't appear that way. Long boards are more of a problem.

Knowing what I know now, I'd get a #5 plane on Ebay that wasn't a basket-case (low rust, all parts present, no obvious damage to metal parts, enough blade left) and put a 25 degree razor edge on it with a very slight camber so the edges don't dig. If the wood shows figure that tears-out, put a 5 degree back bevel on the iron to increase the angle of attack. The jack is long enough to do edge-jointing too. Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls -- all good brands as long as they aren't too new.


I like spending other people's money so get a #3 or #4 size smoother to clean-up the ridges from the jack plane. That's not absolutely necessary, though. I do think you should invest in a good quality hand scraper and learn to hook the edge for the finest surface prep.

The height of the work and how you secure it matters a lot. I'm 5'8" and my main bench top is 34". I fiddled with that so my arms would be exactly where I want them when working 5/4 stock. Make sure the piece can't move and that whatever you use to hold it in place doesn't stick up higher than the board. You might find that pushing the plane straight forward but held slightly skewed creates more of a slicing action than when the iron edge is dead perpendicular to the grain. Pay attention to the light too.

In summary: don't overthink it. You'll know a lot more in an hour of doing than four of reading. The second board will take half as long as the first. sh

[steven c newman]

Ok, tell you what....walk into the Harbor Freight store, or go online to their store......order the Windsor #33 handplane. When you get it home, regrind the edge of the thick cutter it uses into a 3" radius. So...for about $10, (plus shipping..) you now have a very hungry #3 sized scrub plane to try out.

I also found a Corsair #C-5 Jack plane ( yes, the ones that use a single bolt to hold the frog) for about $8 or so. I ground the edge into a decent 8" camber. So, now I have both the small scrub plane, and a Cambered Jack plane...for less than $20...both will take a beating, but...they don't seem to mind a bit.

I also have a Stanley #5 jack with a shallow camber, and a second one with just the corners done. There is a Millers Falls No. 14 jack, with almost zero camber I use as a long smoother. No..you can't have too many jack planes..

Try planes consist of a Stanley #6c, type 10, and an Ohio Tool Co. #81 wood bodied plane.

Smoothers in the shop? A mix of Stanley #3 and #4s and Miller Falls No.8 and No.9 size.

"Jointers" would be the Stanley and Ohio Tool co. #7 size. There are also a Stanley #29, and #31. Very little if any camber to them.

There are a few "in-between" sizes sitting around, too. More to match the size of the work.

Right now, as soon as I am allowed back in the shop, I have a chunk of rough-sawn Walnut to work over..
slab of walnut.jpg
I jointed that edge, as I want to have a reference to cut this down to something I can work with. Plane sitting there is a Stanley #7c

[Jim Koepke]

No..you can't have too many jack planes..

As the old saying goes, YMMV!!!.jpg

Currently there are four #5 Stanley planes in my shop. It seems my needs only require two. Of course I have a #5-1/4 junior jack, another #5-1/4 set up for a scrub, a #5-1/2 and a pair of #6s so the jack plane sizes are pretty well covered. There is also a #3 size plane that occasionally is used like a scrub plane.

Steven and I tend to be among the maximalists when it comes to our tools. Many folks like to be minimalists in the number of tools they allow to take up space in their shops.

When you get down to the facts of wood working, it is possible to do it all with one plane, but not efficient or advisable. It is also not necessary to adopt every inexpensive plane that is offered.

Each person has to find their own happy medium.

jtk

[Patrick Cox]

Patrick, I may be inviting some flames here but the 8/4 boards you show in the picture shouldn't take more than 10-minutes a side with any decent plane. If there are 20 more of them out-of-frame maybe you get more specialized. You certainly don't need a scrubber for mill-sawn stock -- unless it is really warped. Yours doesn't appear that way. Long boards are more of a problem.

Knowing what I know now, I'd get a #5 plane on Ebay that wasn't a basket-case (low rust, all parts present, no obvious damage to metal parts, enough blade left) and put a 25 degree razor edge on it with a very slight camber so the edges don't dig. If the wood shows figure that tears-out, put a 5 degree back bevel on the iron to increase the angle of attack. The jack is long enough to do edge-jointing too. Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls -- all good brands as long as they aren't too new.


I like spending other people's money so get a #3 or #4 size smoother to clean-up the ridges from the jack plane. That's not absolutely necessary, though. I do think you should invest in a good quality hand scraper and learn to hook the edge for the finest surface prep.

The height of the work and how you secure it matters a lot. I'm 5'8" and my main bench top is 34". I fiddled with that so my arms would be exactly where I want them when working 5/4 stock. Make sure the piece can't move and that whatever you use to hold it in place doesn't stick up higher than the board. You might find that pushing the plane straight forward but held slightly skewed creates more of a slicing action than when the iron edge is dead perpendicular to the grain. Pay attention to the light too.

In summary: don't overthink it. You'll know a lot more in an hour of doing than four of reading. The second board will take half as long as the first. sh

Very helpful. And yes, I agree that I need to get working and I will learn from that. Or have better questions to ask! Thanks!

[Patrick Chase]

Ok, tell you what....walk into the Harbor Freight store, or go online to their store......order the Windsor #33 handplane. When you get it home, regrind the edge of the thick cutter it uses into a 3" radius. So...for about $10, (plus shipping..) you now have a very hungry #3 sized scrub plane to try out.

I bought one of these for kicks a while back, and all I can say is: Don't do it if you're the least bit obsessive about your tools. I spent a couple/few hours and a bunch of abrasives flattening the sole and blade back, filing the bed, and otherwise bringing the thing up to what I consider "minimal acceptable condition". When I include the value of my time it was not a smart move overall.

Of course very little of what I did is absolutely necessary if all you want is a beater plane or scrub conversion, so if you trust yourself to not overdo it then by all means get one. I unfortunately didn't have that much self control.

Oh, and after all that work it's merely the best possible POS it can be.

I also have a Stanley #5 jack with a shallow camber, and a second one with just the corners done. There is a Millers Falls No. 14 jack, with almost zero camber I use as a long smoother. No..you can't have too many jack planes..

True that. I'm not going to say how many I have, except that it's more than the fingers on one hand if you count the 2 jack-sized rabbet planes.

[steven c newman]

Been using that #33 for quite a few years now. Has needed to be sharpened twice, I think. It is, after all, just a scrub plane, makes no bones about it, and it one hungry little beasty.....it will never be a smoother, but that is ok. It does the jobs asked of it. If one looks at a Stanley #40.....you will see about the same rough& ready setup. Vintage 40s are running way more than the little Windsor #33.

IF you do get one to use as a scrub plane, fine. If later on you don't like it.....those handles will come in very handy for other planes needing replacement handles...
IMAG0252.jpgIMAG0248.jpg
After all, what did you expect for ten bucks?