Need Help Choosing Squares

[Patrick Cox]

Hello,
I need to order a couple of squares. (Was thinking a small square and a medium square. Like 3" or 4" and then maybe a 6" or 12" but not sure about that large.) I will mainly be working on smaller projects to start that will allow me to practice small mortise and tenon joints and dovetail joints. And most likely working with 3/4" stock. So I will need a square for marking knife lines...etc as well as checking squareness of joints. Should I start with a couple of engineer's squares or maybe add a combination square? Lee Valley has some reasonably priced engineer's squares and then for combination square I would go with a Starrett. Probably either 4" or 6". I guess a Starrett double square would also be an option.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Pat

[Pat Barry]

I recommend a decent combination square. A Starrett would be great although I really don't think you need to pay for that brand right now. I have two, ets call them Starrett knockoffs, that only cost a oouple of bucks each at garage sales. You could follow steven newmans exploits for a great example of finding decent tools at low prices, just a time investment to seek and find. If you don't have the time then I'd suggest going to your local BORG and sort though the stock on hand to find a decent low priced combination square. If on the other hand you have the $$ to spend, your plan is fine. I would want a 12 inch combo square though

[Tim Cooper Louisiana]

It's out of stock everywhere I think, but The Vesper 3" dovetail square kit is ah-mazing. I just ordered the 6" rule to go with it as well. The different rules really pay off with checking dovetails and mortises. The mechanism for changing the rules is so much better than any others. This is an opinion of course.

Starrett is very good, and I've never dropped my 12" combination square.

For value, a lot of people highly advocate PEC seconds. I think there is a site called Harry Epsteins that sells them.

[Stew Hagerty]

I have two Starrett's. I have a 6" Combination Square and a 4" Double Square. For me these are perfect. I have often thought about getting a 12" Combination Square, but I have several other tools which more than make up for not having one. I have quite a few Woodpeckers squares and other layout tools. Their tools ate fantastic. All made in the USA (Ohio) with great quality and accuracy. http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html

[Phil Mueller]

I made the investment in a 4" Starrett square, and used/use that to sort through and select big box and garage sale combination squares. I also use a very small sliding t-bevel from Woodcraft that I square up against the Starrett for dovetails.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I have no idea what your budget is or what you want to build, but if I were starting over again on a limited budget, I think I would buy a Swanson speed square. They are cheap, you can do angles easily, and they are pretty difficult to get out of square. If I had more money, I would get a Starrett combination. They are expensive, but in my opinion worth the money compared to the less expensive combination squares you can find.

[Paul Sidener]

I got a vintage 6" Starrett combination square off of fleabay a couple months ago for $25. It is perfectly square and works great. Not as shinny as new, but worth every penny. Just something to consider.

For a double square, I bought a 4" one from Sterling Tool Works, while I was at Handworks this spring. I got it with the dovetail blade. The square has really helped me make dovetails better. If you get one from somewhere else, I would recommend getting the dovetail blade for it. The tiny blade can get in small places.

[Jim Koepke]

As with so many things this is one of those choices a person must make for themselves.

My preference is for the standard try-square available used from so many makers. There are only one or two sizes needed for me to have a full set to meet all my needs for the different sizes of stock I use.

A combination square is a good choice, to me they feel awkward.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I recommend a decent combination square. A Starrett would be great although I really don't think you need to pay for that brand right now. I have two, ets call them Starrett knockoffs, that only cost a oouple of bucks each at garage sales. You could follow steven newmans exploits for a great example of finding decent tools at low prices, just a time investment to seek and find. If you don't have the time then I'd suggest going to your local BORG and sort though the stock on hand to find a decent low priced combination square. If on the other hand you have the $$ to spend, your plan is fine. I would want a 12 inch combo square though

I basically agree with Pat : Empire (what the BORG carry) is plenty good for woodworking.

With that said, you're not just paying for the brand with Starrett. I have Empire, Pinnacle, and Starrett combination squares, and the Starrett's are a lot more accurate. The Empires and Pinnacles invariably have some combination (and usually both) of significantly non-straight rule and poor machining of the head. Every Empire I own has a curved "straight" face on the head and inaccurate machining of the head/blade mating surfaces, and taken together those are enough to throw perpendicularity by a mil/inch or more. You can fix a curved head by lapping and the mating surfaces by filing (must be done in that order), but at some point it's worthwhile to pay for quality.

Or, you can recognize that all of these errors are insignificant relative to wood motion and not worry about it.

EDIT: My Pinnacle square was probably the most frustrating of all. The head was impeccable, but the rule was out-of-flat by several mils. I ended up buying a Starrett 4R rule to "redeem" it, though at that point it wasn't such a bargain any more.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Whatever you do, don't buy a bloody Bahco. Thought I was getting a nice Portuguese quality square, ended up with a poorly made Chinese thing. Blade is bowed, out of flat, and the head isn't even close to square.

Can recommend Toledo, Moore & Wright. ECE make some nice wood and brass non-adjustable squares if you're interested in that

[Rich Riddle]

I have Starrett and PEC. Here is what Fine Woodworking said a couple of years ago, "When testing squares for this review, we found many to be nearly identical, though prices varied. For instance, double square models sold under the brand names PEC, Lee Valley, Brown & Sharpe, Pinnacle, and Mitutoyo all appear to have been made by PEC. Four of them even came in the same blue-and-white box. Aside from a few cosmetic differences, they performed identically, but the prices ranged widely, from $23 for the PEC to about $55 for the Brown & Sharpe."

They gave the PEC the best value and Starrett the best overall category. The differences weren't worth the extra cost in my opinion. PEC gets my money for new.

[Ray Selinger]

Rather than waste money at a BORG on those aluminium and plastic things,I won't even call them squares, for the same money a Chinese machinist combination square like iGaging. I'll duck now. I much prefer Mitutoyo over Starrett. I have a little 4" Lee Valley double and it's sweet, but I use a iGaging 6" in my apron.

[Reinis Kanders]

PEC seconds can be found for about half price. Otherwise full price PEC is also cheaper than Starrett and good enough, not like Starrett will be all that perfect.
One could buy cheap 1-2-3 machinists setup block and take that to home depot and check Empire squares.

[Patrick Chase]

Rather than waste money at a BORG on those aluminium and plastic things,I won't even call them squares, for the same money a Chinese machinist combination square like iGaging. I'll duck now. I much prefer Mitutoyo over Starrett. I have a little 4" Lee Valley double and it's sweet, but I use a iGaging 6" in my apron.

The BORG combo squares are Empire, which have iron heads and steel rules just like everybody else (except for the really high end Starrett stuff with forged steel heads).

The differences between brands are more a matter of execution than design. I think that the cheaper manufacturers are less careful about things like thermals, i.e. they let the combo square heads get hot during machining and then thermal contraction causes deformation. The Empire ones in particular are deformed in ways that are very consistent with that.

EDIT: Mitutoyo is really, really good. I have their calipers and micrometer and couldn't be happier. I also have an 18" 4R combo square rule, and while it's thinner and a hair less flat than my 24" Starrett it's plenty good for any real-world use.

[Robert Engel]

I've had several combo squares purchased from the hardware store and some have been quite terribly out of square, no where good enough "even for ww'ing" whatever that means to you.

1/2 way through a project its quite frustrating to discover the square isn't square.

My suggestion: get one good one and be done with it: Starrett.

I also have picked up a couple machinists squares over the years which are very accurate.

And BTW you have to check them all. I picked up an 8" Starrett square that was off almost 1/32 in 8".