Northfield vs. Martin

[John Sincerbeaux]

I'm currently in the market for a 16" jointer. Right now I am leaning towards a SCM f410.
But, I am a research adict and before I make a purchase of just about anything, I like to know as much as possible. In this case I am very aware of the used market from IRS auctions to eBay and craigslist for buying used machinery. I call this the starting point. And then I look at the high end as if price were not a factor. So, I think most would agree that a Martin t54 sets the bar in the world of jointers. However, in my search, I am surprised that a NEW Northfield 16Hd with a Terminus cutter head is not far off the price of a new Martin.
So I thought it would be interesting what guys here think about a comparison of the two jointers.
I kind of think of it as American old-school brawn vs. German hi-tech. Both are beautiful machines that I know perform at the top of their class. What makes me wonder, is how can Northfield command the price that is very near that of a Martin and still stay in business? I think of a NF as a machine stuck in a 50 year old design. Granted, it is an amazing design and all that American cast iron is very desirable but it is still as manual as they come in a world that is electronic.
Just curious what you guys think?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Last year we had a bump out built on our kitchen and a total remodel including new custom cabinets. While I could built those cabinets, I am too slow to get it done in a reasonable time. The cabinet maker had one of the newer electronic machines. He complained as the electronics failed too often and in remote Idaho/Washington, he had to pay to fly someone in from either Seattle or San Francisco to get service. He wished he'd bought the old technology. Mechanical can be more reliable.

[peter gagliardi]

Northfield is using a time proven design from before the turn of the last century. A design perfected and patented by Frank Clement. A jointer is a very simple machine. Two perfectly flat coplanar opposing surfaces with a cutterhead flush generally with the outfeed , in between them. Cutter geometry being the same, bearings , balancing, and machining being the same, they will both perform the same.
The wood doesn't know what machine it is on.
So, the real difference is fence and gadgetry related.
If someone just gave me a Martin, i would certainly take it, however, my 100 or so year old American branded jointer with a newer Terminus 4 knife head puts out an exceptional finish when sharp.
There may be some variation in machine tolerances between the Northfield and the Martin, but I would doubt very highly it translates into better work, or any appreciable time savings while using.
I would worry a bit about the lifespan and usefulness of a machine with electronic anything on it, especially if a company decides to no longer support those parts later on.
For that reason alone, I would be looking to spend my money on something more useful, faster, more accurate and with a more concrete return on my investment.
The Martin may however be a bit smoother or quieter while using, and have better dust collection.
Jointers and planers do a lot of rough work, they need to be durable and accurate, not too fancy in my opinion.

[Mel Fulks]

I see no value in some of the new features ,especially the motorized table adjustments. They are slower than the old high end machines with the large adj. wheels which can be spun down and ,to some extent up. The old machines will take off much more wood per pass. The tables were made of Mechanite which is now ,I'm told, only used for metal working machines. But there are clearly two camps with few deserters. I just don't equate newer with better.So I can only suggest looking at some of the old really good machines as I have doubts that I would be happy with either of the offered choices.

[Erik Loza]

If I had the money, I'd buy the Martin!

Actually, if I had the money, I'd probably buy the F410 Nova, then take the rest of the money and go to Fiji with my wife for a month. Like Peter said, it's a jointer. At this level, there aren't any lemons. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Jointers are all about flat tables, large diameter cutting heads if straight blade, vibration free running at speed, and the ability to keep their settings no matter how heavy the timbers you throw on it. Martin is now the pick of the manufacturing litter available here in the US as Hoffmann, equally as good or better does not import. As Peter said so well, the three toed Northfield design was the ultimate manual design. That design doesn't lend itself to electronic adjustment, particularly with electronic spring joint capability. The old T54 with the cast iron base and manual adjustment may have been an even better build than the current machine, as was Bauerle, Kolle, Panhans, and hoffmann- maybe even others. The old American jointers with the exception of Oliver, tended towards the three toed design. While Northfield was among the top tier, Porter, Newman, Yates and a few others it could be argued were considered to be slightly more desirable. The Northfield cored tables were very well done but their spring joint mechanism not so much ( Porter was better ) and their head was slightly smaller in diameter to most others. The 16" Northfield was and is a sweet machine and the only one left of the great old US jointers. I'd not care to choose between the NF or Martin from an operation standpoint as they both make a board flat equally well. The Northfield on the used market commands a slight premium to the now defunct machines . The problem with buying new is you will take an immediate 10K hit on resale. The market for used Northfields is about 5K after a few years but will remain so as long as the tables are not abused. The Martin will stay higher until the electronics fail or just get old enough to and then the value will plummet. An old martin T54 cast iron manual in equal condition will cost slightly more than a Northfield but that is due to rarity, not function.

The larger Northfields are not as robust in build as other old comparable jointers. They don't make a 20" and I'd much prefer the porter at 24-36". Most Martins will be 20". Personally I would never buy a new jointer in a non commercial setting with so many good choices in the 3-5K range with precision bearings, aged tables that if flat today will remain so forever, and a cast iron base that absorbs vibration, unless I wanted a TERSA. The TERSA SCMI makes for an easy blade swap and I see a helical as a negative on a wide jointer. Martin does make a TERSA, I don't know if NF does but I'd still take a straight blade to an insert on a wide machine, particularly if it had a grinder I could lift.

This a long way to not answer your question but I tend to think many don't understand jointer builds and their nuances. Mainly I could talk jointers and sliders all day long. Dave

[John Sincerbeaux]

Thanks everyone for the great info. Exactly what I wanted.
Eric, you're definitely the guy I'll use if I go with SCM.

There is is definitely a "romance" factor in certain beautifully restored machines. For me, the jointer is one such machine.

[Matt Day]

There is is definitely a "romance" factor in certain beautifully restored machines. For me, the jointer is one such machine.

I agree. I'm restoring a 60 year old 12" Northfield (light/medium duty) and am really looking forward to having an old machine with history that I brought back to life. I'll surely get a lot of satisfaction just turning it on each time.

[Martin Wasner]

If you buy a used Northfield, call them with the serial number. They can give you the rundown of who bought it, possibly who has owned it if they have that information, and what parts have gone into it.

If you buy a new one and pick it up, I'll buy you lunch. My cousin works at there, and I live three blocks from there.

Personally, I'd go Northfield but I'm biased for obvious reasons.

[Rick Fisher]

I would go Euro over old for sure ..

If you want the very finest, Martin or Hofmann.. Otherwise go SCM, Felder or Griggio ..

[David Kumm]

As always, the money spent should be relative to your overall financial goals. Every 50K of retirement income needs approx 1M of retirement assets at age 65. If your financial plans are figured out, buy whatever makes you happy. More than ever, we all need to balance our needs and wants. Dave

[Robin Frierson]

I wasnt able to see the prices on the websites for these jointers. What do jointers like the ones discussed here run? And David, why do you see a Helical head as a negative on a wide jointer.

[David Kumm]

In the 20K range new. A jointer isn't a finish surface tool and hand feeding is hard enough with wide boards and even harder with a helical. Unless powerfed, the surface of the helical will still need additional prep so the extra expense isn't justified IMO. Also, my jointer may get wood with some crap on the surface and I'd rather nick regular knives than inserts. On a small jointer the helical is fine as they are pretty cheap at the 8" size. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

The ability of the old machines to remove a whole inch of wood has practical application. It makes a good substitute for a straight line saw in dealing with crooked edges. A straight line saw takes up a lot more room and is expensive. With a deep cut it is good to take care to to start cut a little slower ,but after that the machine doesn't care how much wood it's chewing.

[Erik Loza]

The ability of the old machines to remove a whole inch of wood has practical application...

Mel, you're right about that but I will add that the tradeoff is sound level: Old jointers sounded like jet engines because of the knife projection. Yes, Tersa (and I assume Terminus) as well as spirals can't take off as much stock in a single pass but they are also a lot more pleasant to work around, especially in a small shop. At least in my experience.

Erik