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Thread: Northfield vs. Martin

  1. #46
    One thing I can add from the design side of things is that from a functionality standpoint, we no longer need to make machines that weigh a million pounds out of solid cast iron to do their jobs correctly. In fact, I would argue that modern CAD engineering lets us design machines that are lighter, less expensive to manufacture, yet stronger where they need to be. All of which benefits the consumer. Just like automobiles: You don't need to make a car body out of heavy gauge steel these days and you don't need to make engine blocks out of cast iron any longer. You can make a unibody car that weighs less but gets better fuel econmy and is safer to the driver. Due to a better understanding of engineering. For example, I would argue that any of the modern Italian bandsaws has a stiffer frame than any of the old cast iron machine of the same size. Now, that leaves out the intangibles such as a bigger heavier machine running more smoothly or being quieter, or just the cool factor. I'd love to have a big old Yates Snowflake or Oliver because they're awesome. But if we're talking "how does it need to be built", heavier might be smoother/quieter/more assured feel to the operator but as far as performance, it doesn't automatically guarantee better results. If that got lost, that's what I was trying to say in all this.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  2. #47
    Why does Martin have to make everything look like an art deco piece from the 60's? Not that looks really matter in the ability to machine wood, but anything they make would look hugely out of place in my shop. Which may also be the point, I don't know.

  3. #48
    Art deco would be incorrect. I don't know what they look like

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Why does Martin have to make everything look like an art deco piece from the 60's? Not that looks really matter in the ability to machine wood, but anything they make would look hugely out of place in my shop. Which may also be the point, I don't know.
    Why is all the SCMi stuff the same color as your fridge? The Ti7 L'Invincible looks like a washer and dryer...



    I think Felder does the best in terms of "a look" for the machines. The blue Formats, in particular.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  5. #50
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    I agree Erik. Old methods aren't always better and new aren't always an improvement. That is why these discussions can be helpful. This one is limited to the high end stuff so we don't need to get into the compromises between build and price point that become such an issue with the machines most of us use and can afford. At the high end, it's probably more about which machine works best for the end user rather than which is best. The different methods and materials for the bases is interesting though. I'm a huge fan of a base stout enough to hang the innards rather than using the cast iron table for support. That seems to differentiate the high from the middle, at least for shapers and saws.

    Joe, I think Felder has three sources and grades of cast iron for their machines. I don't know if the differences are simply grinding, or grade and thickness of casting. Dave

  6. #51
    Dave, out of curiosity, do you know much about that "Ironwood" stuff that Stiles sells? For obvious reasons, I'm not allowed in their booth, so only checked it out from the aisle. I know it's Chaiwanese and it looks beefy but beyond that, don't know. I don't run into it from the sales side but then again, I don't really compete directly with Stiles anyhow. Just curious.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  7. #52
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    I used to do doors that way on my Porter when I had employees, but now that I work alone I put the bevel on the styles before glueup and use a matching beveled caul. I had a spring loaded guide with roller skate wheels that bolted to the table to help hold them against the fence. Need to make one to fit the SCM I am running now, left that on the Porter when I sold it.

    My SCM mono head does not really say who it is made by, just says SCM Group by Tersa.

    Still Joe with the pictures. I don't have the market here to buy the tools that I have, so I am waiting for the lottery........

    Maybe I'll just buy some turquoise paint.........

    Eric, I think I have every color SCM paint in the shop, and I like the white the best. But then all the old colors were butt ugly. Especially that yellow that reminds me of changing diapers, nasty!

  8. #53
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    Erik, I'm no help. Looks like it is similar to Cantek stuff. There are guys here who have dealt with Stiles on Altendorf saws and have been happy with the service. I looked at the machines the last time I was at IWF and they seemed pretty decent. Really hard to judge new machines. Most of my opinions have come from rehabbing older ones and seeing how they are really put together. Dave

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Dave, out of curiosity, do you know much about that "Ironwood" stuff that Stiles sells? For obvious reasons, I'm not allowed in their booth, so only checked it out from the aisle. I know it's Chaiwanese and it looks beefy but beyond that, don't know. I don't run into it from the sales side but then again, I don't really compete directly with Stiles anyhow. Just curious.

    Erik
    Some of it looks like Cantek with different paint to me. From what I've seen anyways.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Erik, I'm no help. Looks like it is similar to Cantek stuff. There are guys here who have dealt with Stiles on Altendorf saws and have been happy with the service. I looked at the machines the last time I was at IWF and they seemed pretty decent. Really hard to judge new machines. Most of my opinions have come from rehabbing older ones and seeing how they are really put together. Dave
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Some of it looks like Cantek with different paint to me. From what I've seen anyways.
    Ahhh, Cantek. Had forgotten about them. I guess they OEM out their stuff, like lots of other Chinese manufacturers. That is actually one of the interesting things you get to see at the big shows: The actual OEM suppliers for lots of the Euro machinery. Woodfast was there last time and they make a very well known jointer/planer for the hobby market.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  11. #56
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    A couple of days ago I talked to the owner of Northfield. He is forth generation Northfield. That's pretty cool in itself!
    As anyone I have ever met from Minnesota, I liked him. About as straight up, no nonsense as they get. Lots of interesting info, too long to write here.
    But here are some points:
    They only sell about ten "16" HD jointers a year.
    As others have said here, Jeff (owner) says they are very basic machines.
    They made a decision long ago to stay away from fancy electronics and motorized machines because they felt, they were unnecessary and ultimately would "fail five years later anyway". Also decided NOT to try to compete by degrading quality for quantity(sales).
    I Found this very interesting... I asked him how are they the only company left of all the "legacy" brands? He said the lawyers put the final nails in the legacy companies. I won't say on this forum what he said next but I will say... He said lawyers only want cash, not machines.
    I am still not sure exactly how they survive? I received a quote yesterday and I was surprised by two things. The quote was for a 16" jointer "build". And the estimate delivery was for 14-16 weeks. I realize know why a Northfield is so expensive. You're basically getting a custom built jointer that will last 100 years built in a monster machine shop probably by only one or two people. In that setting there are no "economy of scale" to keep the costs down.

  12. #57
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    John, that is interesting, and true. Basically a custom standard machine built on order. I spoke with Jeff at one of the IWF shows - 2004 I think??
    Anyway, he told me then that they wouldn't be displaying at further shows. He said it cost his size company around $50k for floor space at the show, and he didn't have much space then.
    That means basically giving away 2-3 machines that year just to be in the show. I certainly couldn't afford to give away 1 free kitchen, let alone 2-3 in a year, so I understand that fully.

    On another note, the SCM stuff in all white is a huge improvement over old, but still less than ideal.
    I really only care about paint color if doing a restoration, then I pick what I want.
    I think Martin's paint color choice is good, but they need to lose the grey accents.

  13. #58
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    10 16" jointers are actually more than I would have guessed. Given the medium and heavy models in various widths, and the planers, bandsaws, and table saws, they are delivering a fair number of machines for a custom job shop. The long lead time is good news. A short one would mean they aren't long for this world. I hope they continue to find a market. Society is always better off with a few lifting the bar.

    Woodfast ( Qing Dao ) has their imprint on more Euro stuff than they get credit for. Dave
    Last edited by David Kumm; 08-18-2016 at 5:07 PM.

  14. #59
    They are small. Plus the equipment and property was likely paid for decades ago. They have their niche and barring getting sued to death or no one taking over Jeff's spot, they'll likely be around for quite some time.

  15. #60
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    Comments regards to some posts on this thread.

    First of all, great info shared here by all.
    Certainly no right or wrong answer regarding a comparison of two machines. Whenever we buy anything, we all have different wants and needs, different budgets, color preference, shop size, retirement portfolios etc.

    A Northfield 16" jointer vs. a Martin jointer? I would love to have either. The irony is I can afford either because I am not a professional woodworker. I have wood worked for most of my life, buying my first tablesaw when I was 16. A major part of my retirement plan is to have a shop with an amazing view of the mountains and filled with really nice machines and tools. Think Joe Calhoon.... living in Ouray Co., working in a shop filled with Martin Machines and dropping everything when there is fresh powder to go back country skiing😀

    I was at the AWFS show in Vegas last year. I visited Carl in the Martin booth first. I then went to the Felder and SCM booths. From purely a non biased opinion, Martin machines blow doors off all the rest in fit and finish alone.

    As as far as the color of Martin Machines? From my visits to Germany, Germans are pretty conservative but when it comes to their products, they LOVE bold and vibrant colors.

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