Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 137

Thread: New Lee Valley Mortise Chisels

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
    Posts
    12,109
    This is one of the chisels I use
    toys.jpg
    And I think I will keep using it.
    "New Haven Edge Tool Co." is stamped on the side of the blade.
    Been using it a lot lately. Couple of swipes on the leg of my jeans, and it is ready to go.
    May give the ones from Butcher a try later....and if I ever need a 12mm wide mortise, I have a chisel from Okinawa to do that job.

  2. #77
    Blacksmith Peter Ross made an extremely detailed drawing of each mortise chisel in the Seaton chest. Ross detailed grinding marks, filing marks, "glazing", and very carefully mapped out every undulation in the weld line, but did not show any secondary bevel. Here is a mortise chisel from Andre Roubo:
    chiselroubo1769.jpegroubo mortaise.jpeg

  3. #78
    I can't remember that Peter Ross paid attention to sharpening issues anywhere in the book. So, I don't know if he would have detailed a small secundairy bevel or not. When I look at the drawings from the mortice chisels, then on most of them the area of the edge isn't very sharply defined as it is in this picture of Roubo.

    When I meassure on my screen then the angle of the Roubo chisel is exactly 25 degrees. And like I wrote above, the angles of the primairy bevels of the Seaton chisels are between 20 and 25 degrees. So, either they managed to chop mortices with such shallow angles, or they added a secundairy bevel.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    I can't remember that Peter Ross paid attention to sharpening issues anywhere in the book. So, I don't know if he would have detailed a small secundairy bevel or not. When I look at the drawings from the mortice chisels, then on most of them the area of the edge isn't very sharply defined as it is in this picture of Roubo.

    When I meassure on my screen then the angle of the Roubo chisel is exactly 25 degrees. And like I wrote above, the angles of the primairy bevels of the Seaton chisels are between 20 and 25 degrees. So, either they managed to chop mortices with such shallow angles, or they added a secundairy bevel.
    I think it's worth noting again that secondary bevels can be quite small and still be effective, as in this case they're mostly stabilizing the grain structure immediately behind the edge. If you looked at a side profile of any of my mortise chisels they'd look identical to the picture Warren posted. You need to have an image taken from the front and with favorable lighting to make any determination.

    My experience with mortising in hard woods with HCS chisels at 20-25 deg tip angle is that they fold.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    A suburb of Los Angeles California
    Posts
    644
    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Kees, its not an ozzie thing, its just another unbiased tool review.
    So which Lee Valley/Veritas tool(s) has Derek positively reviewed that did not deserve it?
    AKA - "The human termite"

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Nickerson View Post
    So which Lee Valley/Veritas tool(s) has Derek positively reviewed that did not deserve it?
    None that I know of, though "deserve" is obviously very subjective.

    I think (but am not absolutely positive, and don't have time or inclination to re-read everything) that Derek has reviewed tools for which he provided some level of pre-release testing and feedback. I'm quite sure that he's always been up-front about his degree of involvement, but it looks like he may now have a more restrictive policy with respect to tools he directly worked on. At least I assume that's what he means when he says he's used the mortise chisels but isn't in a position to review them.

    It's also possible that LV asked him not to review tools he works on regardless of disclosure, to avoid any appearance of shilling. I've had employers with such policies and IMO it's a smart thing to do, particularly if you have a strong reputation to begin with.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-25-2016 at 2:22 PM.

  7. If the Seaton chisels don't have a secondary bevel there is a good chance that the reason is that they were never used. From the factory you would not see a secondary bevel.
    In theory the lower the primary angle you go the better, with two caveats: unless there is a secondary bevel a low primary bevel angle will cause the edge to crumble easily. Even a tiny secondary bevel prevents that so it's not much of an issue.
    Two: if the primary angle is too low the chisel can bend or break when you lever out material. THat is you lowered the primary angle so you can easily penetrate deep into the wood, but when you lever out the chisel isn't strong enough to prevent it. That 20-25 degree primary angleseems a good compromise. D2, which is very tough can take a lower primary angle than carbon steel, and that's one reason I like it for mortise chisels.

    The reason Mortise chisels don't have ferrules and and have an oval handle is that the oval handle allows a lot of strength in the direction of pulling but still gives a smaller section to make it comfortable to hold. And the oval helps you orient the chisel in the hand.
    When ferrules were introduced as a general handle solution in the 1840's every other type of chisel lost their wide bolsters and adopted a ferrule. (Mass introduction of socket chisels is a later introduction, mostly American) But for mortise chisels there is no way to put on an oval ferrule effieently so the style persisted.

    In order to properly forge a wide bolster on a chisel you need some interesting forging tools, not impossible but not easy. Every blacksmith who I know who has production ability to do a run of chisels has thought about it and declined. Not that I have given up but earlty 18th century style chisels disappeared for a reason. Unlike Mortise chisels where the original design was deemed superior to a new fangled design, the minute ferruled bench chisels appeared the ferrulless versions disappeared. When beveled edge chisels appeared ion the 1850-60s, and the bevels were hand ground in, the thin chisels we see in the seaton chest also disappeared. You can argue that it was a less expensive way of manufacture and that's true, but the customers bought them and they were fine chisels.

    While I love the idea of making real early 19th century chisels, and I know that people want them and will appriciate them I think the market is limited. The other thing to realize than the single biggest motivation in new chisels (which garners good reviews and the way magazines test chisels) has been edge retention, not ergonomics, or appropriateness in use.
    Last edited by Joel Moskowitz; 08-25-2016 at 9:15 PM.
    -----
    Owner
    Tools for Working Wood

  8. #83
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Johannesburg, South Africa
    Posts
    1,076
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    I think (but am not absolutely positive, and don't have time or inclination to re-read everything) that Derek has reviewed tools for which he provided some level of pre-release testing and feedback. I'm quite sure that he's always been up-front about his degree of involvement, but it looks like he may now have a more restrictive policy with respect to tools he directly worked on. At least I assume that's what he means when he says he's used the mortise chisels but isn't in a position to review them.
    Didn't Derek mention that he only had access to the prototype and thus could not review the final product?
    "If you have all your fingers, you can convert to Metric"

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    I can't remember that Peter Ross paid attention to sharpening issues anywhere in the book. So, I don't know if he would have detailed a small secundairy bevel or not. When I look at the drawings from the mortice chisels, then on most of them the area of the edge isn't very sharply defined as it is in this picture of Roubo.

    When I meassure on my screen then the angle of the Roubo chisel is exactly 25 degrees. And like I wrote above, the angles of the primairy bevels of the Seaton chisels are between 20 and 25 degrees. So, either they managed to chop mortices with such shallow angles, or they added a secundairy bevel.
    When we use a mortise chisel, we ride the bevel for many of the cuts. This technique just doesn't work very well with a compound bevel.

    Recently I bought a 19th century mortise chisel. It looked like it had not been used for many years, but the seller must have been reading blogs or something, because it was freshly ground to a long 18 degree bevel with a small micro bevel. Because of this I got a chance to try the micro bevel technique.

    As one would expect the chisel rode the bevel poorly. One of the important aspects of a mortise chisel is its self jigging quality. When it rides on the bevel it is held securely at a constant angle. And as it moves down, the sides of the chisel engage the walls from previous cuts, also adding jigging and stability. But with the long shallow bevel, much of the thickness was cut away compromising the jigging. There is little gain from having such a thick chisel with nice wide sidewalls if much of it is cut away. Another thing I noticed with the blog configuration was that it had a poor heel that was well up on the chisel, making levering awkward. So three problems: 1) poor riding bevel, 2) poor sidewall engagement, 3) poor heel. And it would be harder to keep a constant angle on the bevel when sharpening. I don't think you will see a Japanese mortise chisel with this configuration.

    Last night I altered this chisel to have a flat 25 degree bevel as you suggested, Kees. This worked much better: much more secure, smoother operation, which is easier on the edge, and more secure sharpening. I mortised white oak, jarrah, hickory, and hard maple. I prefer 30 degrees, but 25 is certainly a lot better than a secondary bevel.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Dickinson, Texas
    Posts
    7,655
    Blog Entries
    1
    I have Ray Iles, Narex, and Lie Nielsen mortise chisels. I can't imagine splitting the handles on any of them.

    I learned to mortise using Blue Handle bevel edge chisels. I never broke a chisel. You guys that split handles must really be prying too much wood out.

    I didn't know what a mortise chisel was for a long time. I remember reading the rec wood news group, there was a guy breaking his blue handle chisels.
    I never understood why he was prying so much wood. Of course I learned to mortise wood from Paul Sellers. He never was a whack-a-way wood worker.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 08-26-2016 at 3:08 PM.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    When we use a mortise chisel, we ride the bevel for many of the cuts. This technique just doesn't work very well with a compound bevel.

    Recently I bought a 19th century mortise chisel. It looked like it had not been used for many years, but the seller must have been reading blogs or something, because it was freshly ground to a long 18 degree bevel with a small micro bevel. Because of this I got a chance to try the micro bevel technique.

    As one would expect the chisel rode the bevel poorly. One of the important aspects of a mortise chisel is its self jigging quality. When it rides on the bevel it is held securely at a constant angle. And as it moves down, the sides of the chisel engage the walls from previous cuts, also adding jigging and stability. But with the long shallow bevel, much of the thickness was cut away compromising the jigging. There is little gain from having such a thick chisel with nice wide sidewalls if much of it is cut away. Another thing I noticed with the blog configuration was that it had a poor heel that was well up on the chisel, making levering awkward. So three problems: 1) poor riding bevel, 2) poor sidewall engagement, 3) poor heel. And it would be harder to keep a constant angle on the bevel when sharpening. I don't think you will see a Japanese mortise chisel with this configuration.

    Last night I altered this chisel to have a flat 25 degree bevel as you suggested, Kees. This worked much better: much more secure, smoother operation, which is easier on the edge, and more secure sharpening. I mortised white oak, jarrah, hickory, and hard maple. I prefer 30 degrees, but 25 is certainly a lot better than a secondary bevel.
    How is the edge holding up at 25 degrees?

    As usual I am allways interested in something new for me. I have a large mortising job coming up the next few weeks and will give it a try also.

  12. #87
    " But with the long shallow bevel, much of the thickness was cut away compromising the jigging."

    Warren-

    Can you expand on this? I'm unclear what this means. I understand the riding bevel concept, but do not understand why the steepness compromises this.

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Milton, GA
    Posts
    3,213
    Blog Entries
    1
    I finally got around to reading this thread. It is interesting to me that this new chisel design is being compared to old pig sticker designs vs Japanese mortise chisel designs. At least initially, the blade shape and seating in the handle seems to me to have as many or more similarities to Japanese designs.

    I am also wondering why those who prefer simpler high carbon steels and laminated steels are not mentioning the Japanese designs? I think there are used Japanese mortise chisels available on auction sites. David Weaver pointed me to one back when he posted here.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 08-26-2016 at 11:17 AM.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
    Posts
    12,109
    Recently picked this one..
    side view.jpg
    No, I haven't tried to sharpen it..
    bevel.jpg
    This is how it arrived here
    hollow back.jpg
    And the hollowed back. This is a 12mm wide chisel.....
    mortise chisel.jpg
    All the way from Okinawa, Japan.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    One of the important aspects of a mortise chisel is its self jigging quality. When it rides on the bevel it is held securely at a constant angle. And as it moves down, the sides of the chisel engage the walls from previous cuts, also adding jigging and stability. But with the long shallow bevel, much of the thickness was cut away compromising the jigging.
    The sides of most mortise chisels are tapered. such that all of the lateral jigging is coming from the base edges (the widest part of the chisel). The sides do provide some jigging in rotation, but you shouldn't need that anyway as you should be able to guide the chisel to within less than the taper angle by eye and handle feel. I don't see where you're losing anything that matters here.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •