New Lee Valley Mortise Chisels

[Patrick Chase]

Overall, the handle-blade combination on the Veritas felt taut. As mentioned earlier, the blade design adds to the effect of more control over the RI, which are quite pointy by comparison (hence "pig sticker").

I think you indirectly raise a terrific point: The L-N and Veritas mortise chisels are patterned after very different historical designs (registered sash mortise and sash mortise respectively) than the Ray Illes (pigsticker). The handling is very different between those two design families.

I personally prefer pigstickers, but IMO that's very subjective and individual. I know plenty of people who prefer sash mortise chisels though.

EDIT: Completed last sentence.

[Derek Cohen]

That's how I see it, Patrick - sash mortice chisels are lighter duty. I assume that they were designed for sash windows. The OB mortice chisel is much heavier duty. I would place the Veritas more in line with the latter (OB) owing to the shape of the blades, or perhaps call them Heavy Duty Sash Mortice Chisels owing to the handle design. Also note that the LN are parallel sided blades and the RI/Veritas have relieved sides.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.crucibleservice.com/esele...eralpart1.html

We often intuitively expect that a harder tool will resist wear better than a softer tool. However, different grades, used at the same hardness, provide varying wear resistance. For instance, O1, A2, D2, and M2 would be expected to show increasingly longer wear performance, even if all were used at 60 HRC. In fact, in some situations, lower hardness, high alloy grades may outwear higher hardness, lower alloy grades. Thus, factors other than hardness must contribute to wear properties.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm, been using these for quite a while, may just keep using them..
tools.jpg
The main two I use all the time, just old vintage ones. Have a couple by Butcher, as well....

[Patrick Chase]

As far as which mortise chisels, my only thought is George Wilson mentioned that D2 is a bit harder to get fully sharp.

D2 has 12% Chromium, compared to 5% in A2, so it has more and bigger carbides. Hock's book has a micrograph showing that the carbides are several times larger than in A2.

The bottom line is that you really want a sharpening medium that can sharpen the carbides as well as the metal. I pretty much exclusively use diamond films/paste with my RIs, though I don't doubt that Spyderco plates will work just fine as the Alumina-ceramic abrasive in those is significantly harder than chromium carbide. SiO (Arks, JNats) doesn't work so well, though.

You also need to hone it at a fairly high tip angle so that the carbides along the edge are amply supported by the surrounding metal, but you have to do that anyway in mortise chisels. I use 35 deg microbevels on my RIs.

[Patrick Chase]

http://www.crucibleservice.com/esele...eralpart1.html

It's important to distinguish between average/bulk hardness and local hardness within the grain structure. The steels in that quotation are not-so-coincidentally listed in order of increasing carbide content, meaning that the ones listed as long-wearing contain higher percentages of very hard carbides within their structure. Those ultra-hard carbides are what provide the wear resistance. One simplistic way to think of them is as providing carbide "cutting teeth" along the edge, like a microscopic circular saw blade.

I would therefore argue that hardness IS what largely drives wear resistance, but only if you consider local hardness in addition to bulk/average hardness.

[Patrick Chase]

That's how I see it, Patrick - sash mortice chisels are lighter duty. I assume that they were designed for sash windows. The OB mortice chisel is much heavier duty. I would place the Veritas more in line with the latter (OB) owing to the shape of the blades, or perhaps call them Heavy Duty Sash Mortice Chisels owing to the handle design. Also note that the LN are parallel sided blades and the RI/Veritas have relieved sides.

I'd call it a heavy duty sash mortise chisel due to three distinguishing features:

1. The blade is relatively slender. They mention that it's "more than 1/2" thick, but true pigstickers are often in excess of 3/4". The Veritas chisels have about the same blade cross-section as the Narex ones, and those are notably lighter and less rigid than pigstickers.

2. The blade "necks down" to a smaller circular cross-section before the socket/bolster. Pigstickers typically carry their full cross-section all the way back to the bolster and handle. They actually appear to be a bit more lightly built than Narex in this respect, as the latter carry their full cross-section back to the bolster/handle.

3. As you say the handle is relatively slender and round. Pigstickers have larger oval handles.

There are such things as sash mortise chisels with tapered sides. That what I was driving at when I said in an earlier post that the L-N is a "registered" (parallel-sided) sash mortise but the Veritas isn't.

None of this says anything negative about the Veritas (see comment in prev post about subjective preference), but I'd say that anyone comparing it to the Ray Iles chisels probably needs to back up a bit and figure out what kind of chisel they really want/need first. The Veritas chisels compete with other sash mortise offerings like L-N. The RI chisels are off in a completely different product category.

[lowell holmes]

I don't use them a lot, but I have never had issues with my Ray Iles chisels.

Of course I don't mistreat them either.

[george wilson]

I will mention again that D2 will take a razor sharp edge,ONLY if your stones are HARD ENOUGH to cut the steel. I have to use CERAMICS on the D2 tools I have made. But,it depends upon how they harden and temper the D2 in the factory. It varies.

However,D2 will not HOLD that razor sharp edge. It gets just below it,and seems to stay there for quite a while. That might be o.k. for mortising chisels,though.

I advise getting the powdered metal ones or the A2 ones. Depends upon your budget!! I have made all of my wife's punch and die sets for making jewelry from A2. It holds up through THOUSANDS of cycles punching photographic paper and Lexan plastic. Paper is NOT the easiest thing on a cutting edge,either. So,A2 will be just fine,in my opinion,though I do like my PM VII plane iron a LOT.

[Patrick Chase]

It's important to distinguish between average/bulk hardness and local hardness within the grain structure. The steels in that quotation are not-so-coincidentally listed in order of increasing carbide content, meaning that the ones listed as long-wearing contain higher percentages of very hard carbides within their structure. Those ultra-hard carbides are what provide the wear resistance. One simplistic way to think of them is as providing carbide "cutting teeth" along the edge, like a microscopic circular saw blade.

Clarifying a bit because I oversimplified in one case: The kind of carbide also matters.

For example M2 has similar total alloyant content as D2, but it has more Tungsten (and Molybdenum, but I'm going to ignore that for now) and less Chromium. Tungsten carbides are harder than chromium carbides, resulting in a very long-wearing steel. Vanadium carbide is even harder still, which is why CPM-10V is wear resistant to the point where common sharpening media don't work on it (Aluminum-Oxide and alumina-ceramic are both softer than vanadium carbide, and SiC is marginal. Diamond and CBN are basically the only viable options).

[Patrick Chase]

I will mention again that D2 will take a razor sharp edge,ONLY if your stones are HARD ENOUGH to cut the steel. I have to use CERAMICS on the D2 tools I have made. But,it depends upon how they harden and temper the D2 in the factory. It varies.

However,D2 will not HOLD that razor sharp edge. It gets just below it,and seems to stay there for quite a while. That might be o.k. for mortising chisels,though.

I advise getting the powdered metal ones or the A2 ones. Depends upon your budget!! I have made all of my wife's punch and die sets for making jewelry from A2. It holds up through THOUSANDS of cycles punching photographic paper and Lexan plastic. Paper is NOT the easiest thing on a cutting edge,either. So,A2 will be just fine,in my opinion,though I do like my PM VII plane iron a LOT.

Rumor Has It (tm) that PM-V11 is fairly similar in composition to D2 but with higher Chromium. PM-V11's high (>=15%) Cr content can also be inferred independent of rumor from the fact that it is stainless, and therefore seems a near certainty.

My experience with the two aligns with yours, and I think that the difference demonstrates the importance of grain structure/size. D2's large carbides tend to chip out and degrade the edge (though as you say it stabilizes once the most vulnerable ones have been knocked out) whereas PM-V11's much finer structure holds up quite nicely.

I also think that D2 holds an edge better at higher edge angles, and this makes logical choice if you think about it in terms of how well the carbides along the edge are supported. The lower the edge angle the more "vulnerable" the carbides will be, and the more sharpness will be lost before it stabilizes. IMO there is always some degree of "chipiness" with D2, but I think that with a 35 deg microbevel it holds up more than well enough for a mortising chisel. I wouldn't want to pare with a D2 chisel though (for that matter and as I've said before, I think that Blue Spruce's choice of A2 for their paring chisels is questionable for the same reason).

By the same token I agree that A2 would work perfectly well in the LV mortise chisels.

[Mike Henderson]

This is a bit off subject, but if you want to save some money buy some antique pigstickers, such as Ward. They were laminated with a hard steel (plain carbon steel) for the cutting edge and a softer steel for the backer. I have a set of Ward Pigstickers and I see them come up for sale every now and then.

They are usually not exact in size, most are just a bit wider than the expected width.

I don't do a lot of cutting mortises from scratch - I usually drill out most of the waste and then clean up the mortise - but when I have used the Wards, they work fine and hold an edge for an acceptable length of time.

Ask yourself how many mortises you're going to make with mortise chisels. If you're going to do a lot, go with the LV. If you're only going to make mortises now and again, an old Pigsticker will serve just fine and save you some money.

Mike

[Adam Cruea]

I've split the beech handle on my 1/2" RI. Made a new one of hickory, hasn't busted yet (and it's a lot more substantial than the beech one that came on it). Of course, keep in mind that I mortise with a mallet that's probably about 4 pounds and I like working with harder woods like hickory.

They are a PITA to sharpen as well. The first 1/2" I had chipped like crazy and constantly needed re-sharpened; it was also not straight. It was more dog-legged. The replacement that TFWW sent me as well as the 1/4" I got work wonderfully, though.

[Paul Sidener]

Interesting. That sounds like a manufacturing defect, because that configuration (full-bolstered pigsticker) has been around forever and is known to hold up extremely well under abuse.

I hope they straightened it out by the time they made mine.

It very well could be. If the mortise in the handle is a little too tight for the tang. I never really thought about that much. It could even been the wood it's self. I don't abuse my tools, but you do hit it with a mallet.

I thought it was interesting that the DVD that came with "The Anarchist's Tool Chest" Chris Schwarz even mentioned that they will split.

I really do prefer the shape of the handle on the RI chisels. Eventually I will probably get another pigsticker, maybe just a vintage one. Probably less expensive that way too.

[Warren Mickley]

The "pigstickers" or "oval bolstered" mortise chisels were called joiner's mortise chisels when they appeared in the late 19th century. They were considerably heavier than mortise chisels from the hand tool era. Oval bolster and pigsticker are modern names. The sash mortise chisel also appeared in the late 19th century. Since there were industrial mortise machines in use during this time, it is difficult to sort out what trades did what or to make generalizations. Charles Hayward says that cabinetmakers used sash mortise chisels in the early 20th century. The pigstickers are very awkward for deep mortises that are not very long, as in a cabinet door frame. Some people today make shallow mortises for stub tenons for which the pigstickers are fine.

In the 18th century mortise chisels were considerably lighter and were not differentiated into two groups. The chisels illustrated in Diderot and Roubo were more like sash mortise chisels than "pigstickers".

The Lee Valley chisels are ground at 25 degrees and have a small 35 degree honing bevel. This is inappropriate for a mortise chisel because for mortising we ride the bevel and use a full flat bevel. The catalog says "Only final honing required before use." Actually quite a bit of remedial work is needed to correct the bevel. The narrowing at the neck might be a weak point for the chisel, but I would be worried about the strength of the tang. If it is anything like the dinky tang on the Lee Valley bench chisels, it would be a weakness.