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Thread: New Lee Valley Mortise Chisels

  1. #31
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    There is some experience required in keeping mortise chisel bevels in tact. I believe that driving them solid then levering is brutal on the edge, so I back the chisel out and just scoop the waste. My mortise chisels are high carbon steel and u can usually cut many mortises before they wear to the point if needing a touch up.
    I'm suspect that moving to a steel like D2 is necessary or even an improvement. An extremely wear resistant steel that chips with ease sounds like a call for more time at the stones than warranted for a given project.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  2. #32
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    Quote from a magazine article - - -"The steel used in these chisels is D2, a tough alloy to be sure. The downside to the D2 is that it’s more difficult to sharpen than any other steel I’ve tried (it’s even more difficult than some exotic steel I tried from planemaker Karl Holtey a few years ago). Some sharpening systems don’t seem to really be able to sharpen it much, even with a lot of rubbing. Other systems work (such as diamonds and Norton waterstones), but it takes far longer to polish the bevel to an acceptable level."

    I haven't sharpened mine, but I did introduce a compound bevel to mine. I did not experience any issies.



  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    Quote from a magazine article - - -"The steel used in these chisels is D2, a tough alloy to be sure. The downside to the D2 is that it’s more difficult to sharpen than any other steel I’ve tried (it’s even more difficult than some exotic steel I tried from planemaker Karl Holtey a few years ago). Some sharpening systems don’t seem to really be able to sharpen it much, even with a lot of rubbing. Other systems work (such as diamonds and Norton waterstones), but it takes far longer to polish the bevel to an acceptable level."

    I haven't sharpened mine, but I did introduce a compound bevel to mine. I did not experience any issies.
    In my experience diamonds aren't much slower on D2 than on A2 or PM-V11. Diamonds/CBN are so much harder than any of these steels that they're relatively insensitive (compared to softer media) to the differences.

    Sigma Select II stones also do well on D2. Not as fast, and not quite as nice of an edge (though as George points out you'll soon lose that anyway) but very usable.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    There is some experience required in keeping mortise chisel bevels in tact. I believe that driving them solid then levering is brutal on the edge, so I back the chisel out and just scoop the waste. My mortise chisels are high carbon steel and u can usually cut many mortises before they wear to the point if needing a touch up. I'm suspect that moving to a steel like D2 is necessary or even an improvement. An extremely wear resistant steel that chips with ease sounds like a call for more time at the stones than warranted for a given project.
    I use my RIs with a 35 deg tip angle as recommended by TFWW and they don't fail by large-scale chipping (as opposed to "micro-chipping" as the individual carbide particles along the edge come out). I think that's the minimum practical edge angle for D2 though.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    The "pigstickers" or "oval bolstered" mortise chisels were called joiner's mortise chisels when they appeared in the late 19th century. They were considerably heavier than mortise chisels from the hand tool era. Oval bolster and pigsticker are modern names. The sash mortise chisel also appeared in the late 19th century. Since there were industrial mortise machines in use during this time, it is difficult to sort out what trades did what or to make generalizations. Charles Hayward says that cabinetmakers used sash mortise chisels in the early 20th century. The pigstickers are very awkward for deep mortises that are not very long, as in a cabinet door frame. Some people today make shallow mortises for stub tenons for which the pigstickers are fine.

    In the 18th century mortise chisels were considerably lighter and were not differentiated into two groups. The chisels illustrated in Diderot and Roubo were more like sash mortise chisels than "pigstickers".
    Oval bolsters appeared long before the late 19th c., though I think Waren is right that they weren't referred to as OBMCs, but just as mortise chisels. Here are a couple screenshots from the Seaton Tool chest book. These chisels were presumably made in the 1790s, very much still in the "hand tool era."

    IMG_2503.JPG IMG_2504.JPG

    These chisels are pretty similar to my own OBMCs, which are probably early 20th c. Note the diagram of the oval bolster--the oval is perhaps not as pronounced as later chisels, but it's not that different. It's definitely true that these are smaller and more delicate than later chisels. The blades of these range from 5 5/8" to 6 1/8", whereas my later ones are up to an inch longer. The handles are similarly shorter on the Seaton chisels, so total length difference is 1 1/2" - 2", a substantial difference.

    Another difference is that on most factory made OBMCs in the late 19th/ early 20th c., the handles at the narrow end are considerably wider and thicker than the bolsters, which is ugly, but easier to make. In the chisels above, the handles are nicely flush with the bolsters. I've reshaped several of my handles this way, flushing the ends to the bolsters and reducing the fat end by a commensurate amount. This makes the chisels a lot nicer to hold and use.

    The most interesting thing about the second pic above is how pronounced the taper is, in both width and thickness. I bet most people today wouldn't buy a mortise chisel with such a pronounced taper in width; people tend to want their chisels to be exactly 3/8" or whatever, which is kind of silly if you're sawing the tenon to fit, but whatever.

    Nonetheless, I just don't get why no one makes chisels like this. Why can't someone make a "pigsticker" with a simple high carbon blade and a decent beech handle? For that matter, why can't anyone make HCS bench chisels with thin tapered blades, octagonal bolsters, and no ferrules? Maybe this new Crucible outfit will make some. If not, someone should.
    Last edited by Steve Voigt; 08-21-2016 at 11:24 AM.
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  6. #36
    One more thing: If anyone is interested in reading more, Joel has a nice series on Mortise chisels, in five parts.

    Part I
    Part II
    Part III
    Part IV
    Part V
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  7. #37
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    I think that is a tough sell, they look quite expensive to produce and they need an experienced user who does not need a visual reference using the side of the chisel.

    It would be awesome to see it come to production especially in laminated steel, but seems like very high risk.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #38
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    This is one of those tools that's above my ability level, but there was a vast amount of good information in this thread. Thanks for the information.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    For that matter, why can't anyone make HCS bench chisels with thin tapered blades, octagonal bolsters, and no ferrules? Maybe this new Crucible outfit will make some. If not, someone should.
    Why no ferrules? Other than looking like chisels from ~1850 rather than ~1880 what's the advantage?

    I agree though that blades tapering in thickness and reverse tapering in width are a joy to work with. I have an old I.Sorby with such a blade and a forged octagonal bolster which I believe was made as late as 1945 and is my favourite chisel for most none dovetail work.

    If someone did make good reproduction chisels I doubt the market would extend beyond those interested in the history of woodworking, which I imagine is a rather small niche.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul goldberg View Post
    Why no ferrules? Other than looking like chisels from ~1850 rather than ~1880 what's the advantage?
    You don't need a ferrule if the bolster is as large as the base of the handle, as it is in a pigsticker.

    When the bolster is smaller than the handle some of the impact load is transmitted up through the tang, causing splitting. The ferrule's role is to prevent that. With a full bolster and a properly fit handle (in particular if the tang isn't too tight) the impact loads are transmitted almost entirely to the bolster, with very little radial/splitting component.

    Some pigstickers additionally have leather washers between the handle and the bolster to further cushion against impacts - I believe Joel goes into that in one of the TFWW articles Steve linked above.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-21-2016 at 9:11 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Sidener View Post
    It very well could be. If the mortise in the handle is a little too tight for the tang. I never really thought about that much. It could even been the wood it's self. I don't abuse my tools, but you do hit it with a mallet.
    I thought about this some more today and I think you're dead on about tang fit. If the mortise is too small then the tang ends up carrying all of the load and that nice huge bolster is just along for the ride. That would explain why people typically don't see splitting with their hand-made (and presumably carefully fit) replacement handles.

    Like a few people in his thread I love how pigstickers (and the RIs in particular) handle. That's very subjective, though.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-21-2016 at 9:46 PM.

  12. #42
    Steve, I think my previous post was a little misleading. I was well aware that oval bolsters were made in the 18th century. In fact my Seaton chest book was still open to the page you show when I read your post. I would be pretty happy if I could buy the kind of 1796 chisels in the chest or the 18th c mortise chisels shown in Jay Gaynor's book. The late 19th century Joiner's mortise chisels are considerably heavier.

    A late 19th century 3/16 mortise chisel that I own has a bolster that measures .81 X 1.41 while the corresponding chisel in the Seaton chest is .775 X .965. The 19th century tool is 46% bigger in the long axis. And while the widths are the same for the two chisels, the thickness is considerably greater for the later chisel, especially near the bolster.

    Paul, we are suggesting that reproduction chisels that copy standards of 200 years ago would be better tools than current offerings, not just historically interesting.
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 08-21-2016 at 10:44 PM.

  13. #43
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    I am far from being a religious person, an atheist to be more exact, but all of this who-hare over the benefits gained by exotic steels reminds me of something quoted in the bible. "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

    Focus more of your attention on refining your sharpening technique, and you will discover that traditional hcs will more than meet the requirements placed upon it. Additionally, hcs will reward you with a superior cutting edge, without the need to abandon your traditional honing stones.

    Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 08-21-2016 at 11:20 PM.

  14. #44
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    I also have two Narex mortise chisels that I'm happy with.

    They are not Ray Iles chisels, but they chop mortises as fast as the more expensive ones.

  15. #45
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    With a 30 degree secondary bevel (not a micro bevel), the Narex mortise chisels represent excellent value for money spent, and are hard to fault within their overall design.

    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 08-21-2016 at 11:40 PM.

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