How does T-10 steel compare to O1?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys.
I'm looking at a side rabbet plane made by Wood River. They said the blades are T-10 steel. Can someone please explain how T-10 compares to O1? What I'm trying to understand is:
* Can these blades can be sharpened on my normal stones (diamond and ceramic)
* Will they get as sharp as O1?
* Will the edge last about as well as O1?

Thanks for teaching me.
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

T10 Tool Steel http://www.nihonzashi.com/types_of_steel.aspx

T10 is a Chinese designation for a water hardening high carbon tool steel with about 1% carbon content. The US designation of this steel is W1. The W series of tool steels are a very simple alloy group, low cost, and responsive to simple heating and water quenching for hardening. The alloy does undergo considerable distortion during quenching. This alloy is one of the common Water Hardening tool steel grades available. W1 is basically a simple high carbon steel and is easily hardened by heating and quenching in water, just as with plain carbon steel alloys.

• Applications: W1 is commonly used for hand operated metal cutting tools, cold heading, embossing taps and reamers as well as cutlery.
• Heat treatment is somewhat dependent upon section size, or intricacy of the part. For large sections, or intricate shapes, slowly preheat to 1100 F and then slowly increase temperature to 1500 F. Hold for 10 to 30 minutes and then quench in water or brine.
• Forge at 1900 F down to 1550 F. Do not forge below 1500 F.
• Anneal at 1400 F and slow cool in the furnace at 40 F per hour or less.
• Temper at 350 to 650 F for Rockwell C of 64 to 50.

[Steve Voigt]

Hi guys.
I'm looking at a side rabbet plane made by Wood River. They said the blades are T-10 steel. Can someone please explain how T-10 compares to O1? What I'm trying to understand is:
* Can these blades can be sharpened on my normal stones (diamond and ceramic)
* Will they get as sharp as O1?
* Will the edge last about as well as O1?

Thanks for teaching me.
Fred

Fred,

Assuming Stewie's link is correct and T-10 is basically the same as W1 (which in turn is basically the same as 1095), then the answers to your questions are yes, yes, and almost. W1/ 1095 is a very pure water-hardening steel. It's easy to sharpen and takes a keen edge, but since it doesn't contain any of the alloys used (in very small amounts) in O1, it will wear a little faster.

Interesting that they use this stuff. Western toolmakers AFAIK have basically abandoned simple water-hardening steels for plane irons, chisels, etc. because its tendency to warp and sometimes crack during HT.

[Stewie Simpson]

T10 http://casiberia.com/resource/steel-information/330

T10 is basically the Chinese equivalent of our 1095, but it has silicon added as an alloying element to improve the steel's strength and wear resistance (edge-holding) properties. T10 blades can be tempered to a high hardness and hold an edge well. As with 1095, rust resistance is low, and T10 blades must be carefully maintained.

[Stanley Covington]

Beware of quality of Chinese made tool steel. QC controls are typically very sketchy. I know this from direct experience purchasing custom-made Chinese-manufactured steel products in bulk for construction products, and having professional testing companies verify content.

Some runs are as promised, others will have the wrong chemical composition, and impurity tolerances are often exceeded. As I understand it, these problems occurs for a several reasons. First, once a mill gets its testing and QC departments running well, the key people will quit to go work elsewhere for more money, or to help out a relative (usually an Uncle) with his own business. Hard to keep trained people.

The better tool steel mills, like Hitachi, start with billets of new steel, typically from Sweden. Swedish steel has the lowest levels of undesireable contaminants of any volume steel production in the world, and it has been this way for centuries. The ore is just better.

But most mills that produce tool steel include some scrap metal in the mix. In China, it is all scrap metal. Nothing wrong with scrap metal so long as it is carefully sorted before going into the pot by experienced people. But unless strict QC procedures are followed and double checked, nasty stuff will find its way into the mix, and when cost pressures rise, and experienced people are scarce, sorting and testing may not be up to snuff. Note that it is very difficult to "remove" impurities from steel. The standard practice is to dilute impurities down to allowable levels. Lots of opportunities for quality to suffer when using scrap metal.

The third difficulty is more pernicious. Chinese employees will sometimes steal the quality materials, by the truckload, and replace them with lower-quality materials. This happens frequently unless strict measures are established and maintained.

I hope these new tools work out.

Stan

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for all the information guys! This is good, interesting stuff!
Fred

[george wilson]

1095 will take the sharpest edge of all the tool steels(I don't know about powdered steel alloys). It won't hold the edge as long,however. As I have said before,there is no free lunch. You trade less sharpness for better edge retention.

I would not trust Chinese steels either. They have very poor quality control on MANY things they make. Remember the poison baby formula? I won't even buy DOG TREATS (the chew toys) made in China. I love my dogs too much!!

By the way,I tried one of those nice looking Marbles pocket knife repros they make in China. They use a poor grade of stainless steel in their blades(440A. 440C is the good stuff!). The worst thing is they GLUE the bolsters on! Mine FELL OFF! That's what I get for trying one! I expected the blades to be cheap,and had PLANNED to just make a new blade. Just knock out the hinge pin to get the blade out. But,the knife would have to be completely taken apart to silver solder the bolsters back on,AS THEY SHOULD BE!!! Too much trouble.

[Patrick Chase]

Beware of quality of Chinese made tool steel. QC controls are typically very sketchy. I know this from direct experience purchasing custom-made Chinese-manufactured steel products in bulk for construction products, and having professional testing companies verify content.

In a previous life I designed products that were often manufactured in China. While I agree that everything you list is a very real issue, I think that it's important to recognize that Chinese manufacturers behave that way because a lot of their Western customers effectively incent that behavior (note: "incentivize" is both redundant and not an actual word). The classic outsourcing pattern in the 90s and 00s was something like this:

• Bid project
• Accept low bid with minimal due diligence and no post-bid on-site presence
• Profit!

If you manage any supplier that way you will have all of the issues you list. Companies that pay realistic prices and invest in supplier management get much better results, though (Apple is the well-known example but there are others).

Of course the problem for an end user is that we don't know how WR manages their suppliers. It's also a problem for small customers like you, because it's infeasible to invest in the sort of management that's required.

[george wilson]

I fully agree with Patrick that the very low cost we want to pay for imported goods causes low and inconsistent quality. A friend of mine succeeded in getting very high quality products made in India. He happened to meet the owner of a factory and agreed to pay a decent price for a product that he got produced there. There was still plenty of room for a good profit from selling those items here in the USA.

[Stewie Simpson]

In a previous life I designed products that were often manufactured in China. While I agree that everything you list is a very real issue, I think that it's important to recognize that Chinese manufacturers behave that way because a lot of their Western customers effectively incent that behavior (note: "incentivize" is both redundant and not an actual word). The classic outsourcing pattern in the 90s and 00s was something like this:

• Bid project
• Accept low bid with minimal due diligence and no post-bid on-site presence
• Profit!

If you manage any supplier that way you will have all of the issues you list. Companies that pay realistic prices and invest in supplier management get much better results, though (Apple is the well-known example but there are others).

Of course the problem for an end user is that we don't know how WR manages their suppliers. It's also a problem for small customers like you, because it's infeasible to invest in the sort of management that's required.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...1-12-hour.html

[Stewie Simpson]

1095 will take the sharpest edge of all the tool steels(I don't know about powdered steel alloys). It won't hold the edge as long,however. As I have said before,there is no free lunch. You trade less sharpness for better edge retention.

Thank you George. An excellent example of some sound logic.

[Stanley Covington]

In a previous life I designed products that were often manufactured in China. While I agree that everything you list is a very real issue, I think that it's important to recognize that Chinese manufacturers behave that way because a lot of their Western customers effectively incent that behavior (note: "incentivize" is both redundant and not an actual word). The classic outsourcing pattern in the 90s and 00s was something like this:

• Bid project
• Accept low bid with minimal due diligence and no post-bid on-site presence
• Profit!

If you manage any supplier that way you will have all of the issues you list. Companies that pay realistic prices and invest in supplier management get much better results, though (Apple is the well-known example but there are others).

Of course the problem for an end user is that we don't know how WR manages their suppliers. It's also a problem for small customers like you, because it's infeasible to invest in the sort of management that's required.

Not a small customer at all. We did invest in the analysis, management reinforcement, and quality confirmation manpower and procedures needed to prevent the problems. That is why I know the problems that need to be overcome. I know a great deal about Apple's procurement procedures overseas.

The difficulty is not usually the vendor's ownership/management. They want a long-term, stable, cordial, and profitable relationship. The difficulties stem from the nature of the workforce, as I clearly indicated in my post. Chinese workers, in general, do not have a long-term view of employment. They tend to place family relationships and the profit of the family elders above all else, certainly above loyalty to, or a feeling of obligation to continue working for, an employer that invested training in them.

As you touched on in your last sentence, the end user has ZERO involvement in evaluating the quality of a steel at the mill. My point is that in China, quality can be hit and miss. A gamble. I hope the hits are more frequent that the misses, but as the saying goes, "You pays your money, and you takes your chances."

[Stewie Simpson]

Stanley; there have been many manufacturing companies that were based in Western Countries, that saw fit to abandon their highly trained workforce to seek a greater return on their investment from 3rd world countries like China. Its called trying to compete in an open market system. The consumer wins out with cheaper imports, the manufacturer makes a bigger profit for its shareholders, but the abandoned workforce loses out big time.


https://www.mapi.net/blog/2014/01/ch...-manufacturing

[Kees Heiden]

I have two block planes, an old Stanley and a Quangsheng (that's the maker of woodriver planes and sold under many names here in Europe). I would say that the blades are quite comparable. They sharpen easilly, get very sharp and don't last for a huge time. No surprise really, The QS blade wears down normally, not really chipping like crazy or folding over. Of course, it does get a chip from time to time, that's real life in the shop, happens to other blades too.

This is just one sample of course, but I also regularly read a lot of praise about these planes. I guess the quality controll in the QS factory is "good enough".

[Patrick Chase]

I have two block planes, an old Stanley and a Quangsheng (that's the maker of woodriver planes and sold under many names here in Europe). I would say that the blades are quite comparable. They sharpen easilly, get very sharp and don't last for a huge time. No surprise really, The QS blade wears down normally, not really chipping like crazy or folding over. Of course, it does get a chip from time to time, that's real life in the shop, happens to other blades too.

This is just one sample of course, but I also regularly read a lot of praise about these planes. I guess the quality controll in the QS factory is "good enough".

I have 2 WRs (a #3 and a "scrubified" #5) and the blades are decent, on par with classic HCS. It's important to note that Stanley's point is largely about variability and lack of process control, though, so as you point out a few good examples don't prove much.