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Thread: C.Nurse dovetail saw restoration

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    Perth, Australia
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    9,467
    Thanks for that tip, Pete. I shall try it out on a 20 tpi saw I need to refile completely.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Broadview Heights, OH
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    711
    Kees,

    It's not a theory, it's a reality. I've seen those engravings and others, and am not convinced. A drawing is one thing, a picture is another. I consider the gold standard for these things to be the Seaton Chest. In those back saws, one does appear to have a tapered blade, others not. One even has what looks to be a spine that is thicker on the toe than where it meets the handle. The Seaton Chest is about as close as we can get to what was reality. I just don't buy into the tapered phenomenon as anything other than an accident. The author of the book on the chest even notes: "One interesting point is that the blade widths in all backsaws project less at the toe than the heel. Whilst the reason for this is unclear, it seems likely that it is more to do with the needs of the person using the saw than the sawmaker." Couldn't agree more!!!! (although from the picture, not all appear to be tapered to my eye).

    There is another thing that I think bears mentioning. When jointing a saw, more pressure is always applied at the end of the file stroke than the beginning. This removes more metal from the toe, and after a bunch of sharpening's, you have a tapered blade. Anyone who has ever jointed a board, can attest to this phenomenon.

    I've handled literally thousands of vintage backsaws, and I've never, not one time, seen one that I considered to be made that way. All had lifted backs at the handle mortise, and signs of trauma on the toe. The vast majority, like 90%, were as straight and parallel as can be. That includes Disston saws from the early (1840-1860) period and his contemporaries. I've attached a picture of two, crazy early 1845ish backsaws made in Philadelphia, one by Disston, the other by Dillworth. Both, as you can see have blades as untampered as it gets. While two saws don't make up the universe, these saws are so early, it tapered blades really were a thing, and fledgling makers in the US wanted to fit in with the Sheffield makers, surely they would have made their backs tapered as well. They didn't, and I don't believe those in Sheffield did either. I have many other early saws like this that show the same results.

    We will obviously never know, but when I croak, and go to the great saw works in the sky, this will be one of the questions on my list.
    Regards,

    Pete

    batwing.jpg

  3. #33
    Another great piece of work. I love the way you maintained its historic provenance!
    Fred

  4. #34
    I've got an earlier one, 1750's White's saw. George made copies from this saw when he was working in Williamsburg.

    1750_white.jpg

    And I have made a copy of a very early Kenyon, like this one.



    So, now you have two pictures and documented evidence that backsaws once upon a time came with a tapered blade. How much more do you need

    Somewhere in the 19th century they obviously changed to parallel blades, and indeed they shifted often. Earlier saws are really very rare. So I think that is no wonder that you only find parallel ones where the plate has slipped in the spine.

    Because normal handsaws are always tapered, this habbit going back the medieval "breadknife" saws, I think that it is no surpise that the first backsaws also were tapered.

  5. #35
    BTW, all the Seaton chest saws are tapered, not much, just a few mm. The large tenon has the most taper indeed.

  6. #36
    The oldest backsaw I have is a Webster 16" with 3/4 " taper.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    Broadview Heights, OH
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    711
    Guys,

    I just don't buy it. My experience dictates otherwise. And, Kees, I think you make my point. Not many saws from those days exist. So, for those that do, isn't it reasonable to expect that they are the ones that are the most abused, dropped, banged, pounded and in general beat up examples? All others being relegated to scraper stock or the dump? In fact, I'll name it and call it the Taran Backsaw Corollary. That is, the amount of backsaw blade taper is directly proportional to it's age.

    When I get a minute, I'll look for the patent papers on the Peace Patent. He waxes poetic about the dangers of blade taper in the submission.

    Either way, Derek did a great job in his restoration.

    Regards,

    Pete

  8. #38
    From Nicholson, The Mechanic's companion. Definitely tapered, even in the 1850 edition!

    Nicholson zagen.jpg

    The Dalaway saw, also 18th century.

    Dalaway_Saw.jpg

    There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that backsaws started out tapered. A clue is that they ALSO tapered the spines of those old saws, something that doesn't change through time. I am afraid you will have to update your Taran Backsaw Corrolary a little bit. Put the change of fashion point somewhere in the first half of the 19th century and it might even be correct.

  9. #39
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    Jul 2015
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    Broadview Heights, OH
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    Kees,

    Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that isn't the case. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

    Happy Sawing, tapered or not!

    Pete

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    SE Michigan
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    3,222
    Great tip Pete, thanks!

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Kees,

    Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that isn't the case. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

    Happy Sawing, tapered or not!

    Pete
    Sure, that's the whole purpose of a discussionforum isn't it?

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Williamsburg,Va.
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    12,402
    I have to go with Kees on the tapered saw blade issue. We copied all the saws we reproduced,except for the White backsaw and the Dalaway, from the Seaton Chest. The Dalaway dovetail saw is one we copied for our thinnest dovetail saw in the group of back saws we made for the Historic Area craftsmen. It had a .015" blade,and was the most popular of our smaller saws because of the thin blade. But,we put a brass back on ours. I don't recall who told us to use a brass back. Probably Jay Gaynor. Ours had a tapered blade,but somewhat wider than the blade shown,which was probably worn down from use.

    We debated as to WHY blades were tapered. Possibly to help keep the saws from being front end heavy? Crosscut and rip saws also (obviously) have tapered blades. Was it just to keep the design of back saws "in line" with these saws? That sounds a bit silly,but tool makers were,like everyone else way back then,a very conservative bunch. Things evolved very slowly. These days,it's more like "everything goes",good design or not.

    Blades HAD to be deeper in the rear part,to clear the handles' thicknesses. Still doesn't really explain why their front ends were tapered.Jon is on your right. You can see from the saws just in front of him that they were tapered. And,these were made from UNUSED original Kenyon saws(except for the Whites and the little Dalaways). The White saws are roughly made compared to the later 18th. C. Kenyons. They did not yet even have specialized saw screws. English tool making gets more crude the farther back you go. Certainly the tools from the Mary Rose are quite crude.

    Here are 3 pictures of details of the White saw,and one overall picture of a batch of back saws. I did not take pictures of the individual saws. There is a sample of each saw on the foremost end of the bench. The 5th from the left is a Cartwright. Another earlier saw,but not as early as the Whites,which,IIRC,was from about 1765. Unfortunately,the blades overlap,though. Look in front of Jon to see tapered blades that are Kenyons.

    Any suggestions why back saws were tapered?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by george wilson; 08-28-2016 at 4:21 PM.

  13. #43
    Yep, and after you published the pictures of the saw on this forum, I made a copy too. It's still one of my favourites. Simple, yet plenty elegant enough for me. Thanks for that George.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Missouri
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    2,151
    I really don't know much about saws. I do believe I know some about woodworkers. They are a very inventive bunch. Could it be that a woodworker just added a back at some point. From there the makers just applied a back to their already tapered plates and away it went. They would have had to reset up to make straight plates.
    Jim

  15. #45
    I think that is exactly what happened. Things didn't change overnight back then, like George also explains two posts above. Plate saws were firmly established back in the 16th/17th century, (allthough the majority of saws seen in paintings and pictures from that time are still framesaws). Those platesaws are invariably tapered towards the toe. Earlier examples look like an oversized breadknife, later ones like the Dutch saws from the guild period had a handle like we know from dovetail saws put attached to a tang from the plate, a bit like a modern gent saw.

    cat_38_0_1382357996.jpg

    And then suddenly in the 18th century the English backsaw appears! Fully develloped with (tapered) spine, tapered blade and handle rivetted to the plate. Backsaws have been mentioned in earlier texts, but there is no picture.

    An article about this missing link from Ray Gardiner: http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?opt...d=47&Itemid=74

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