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Thread: Well I Took The Plunge

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    I have a tenoning jig that has gathered dust in my closet for years. I can cut tenons by hand quicker than it takes to break out the jig. It is a glorious tool, but not worth the effort to set up and use it.
    Now see I really like mine. I made tenons by hand and with a dado head before I got it, and I actually much prefer it. I can make fine adjustments as thin as a hair, and I can also use it for splines.

    Mortises, I always chopped by hand until I got my Powermatic PM701. I absolutely love that thing! It really has made an improvement in my work. But...

    I debated back & forth a dozen times before I got it. It was between it and the 700XL. Obviously I ended up with the PM, for multiple reasons. One, as I said, I am kind of a traditionalist and really like actual mortise & tenons. Two, and VERY significantly, the PM was 1/3 the price of the Festool.

    However, as the years have gone by, I couldn't help but think about loose tenons. I tried the router method and was NOT sold, either too many things to go wrong and ruin a piece, or buy (or build) a complex jig that can clamp, adjust to various sizes, and angles, and that I have to find a place to safely store when not in use. So I began looking back at the Domino, but the 500 this time. My PM easily handles all of my big stuff.

    Then, after seeing Tommy's swing episode, I was hooked and placed my order.
    "I've cut the dang thing three times and it's STILL too darn short"
    Name withheld to protect the guilty

    Stew Hagerty

  2. #32
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    There are two main reasons I think more people don't use the Domino machine. One is obviously cost and the other is they think they will be looked down upon by traditionalists who think they are taking shortcuts.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Hagerty View Post
    Thanks for the heads up Kevin. I had bought the spacers, but thanks to your post, I was able to catch the seller before they were shipped and they refunded my money. At least I am assuming that this will be one of the "newer" variety since I am buying it new and is coming from CPO.
    No problem Stew glad to help.

  4. #34
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    I would not suggest a Domino in the stress point of a table leg or chair. There good for a lot of things but not stress joints. Speed is the seller. Price is why most don't have but it's a serious want by many. It is faster than a M&T but not a substitute for proper joints.

    Here us a table leg with Domino's and additional metal support. Faster than a M&T but not secure enough without the metal

    IMG_0242.jpg
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    Last edited by jack duren; 08-29-2016 at 7:26 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack duren View Post
    Seen a lot of failed Domino's. Can't say that about a true M&T. Have two for work, but won't use on personal projects where a good stress joint should be used...
    If you can please post a photo or describe how the joints failed. I don't doubt what you've seen, but this thing is pretty bulletproof. Did the joints you saw fail use undersized dominos or perhaps use the wrong width setting when cutting the joint? That would seem more like operator headspace and timing issue...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Ortiz View Post
    If you can please post a photo or describe how the joints failed. I don't doubt what you've seen, but this thing is pretty bulletproof. Did the joints you saw fail use undersized dominos or perhaps use the wrong width setting when c utting the joint? That would seem more like operator headspace and timing issue...
    I have no pictures of the 700 bar stools made for Chili's restaurant that failed in 2015. All using Domino's. After one or two from each store failed in the first month and replacements sent, after awhile it was obvious all would fail over a period of time and all 700 were replaced with improved versions.
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    Last edited by jack duren; 08-29-2016 at 8:11 PM.

  7. #37
    The joint strength tests by FWW and Wood magazine did not give good marks to dominos but the size of the domino joint was much smaller than the traditional mortise and tenon joints that tested better. That makes total sense to me. The size of the joint is a significant factor but not whether it is a traditional M&T or a Domino made loose M&T. It may be tempting to use smaller joints with the domino rather than figuring out how to work enough joint into the project but I see no other reason it is inferior (and I don't have one so I'm not arguing the point to protect my decision to get one).

    Stated another way, I have some chairs I like to make that have joints the size of domino loose tenons. I would not hesitate to use a Domino for this chair if I had one. With my jigs, the mortises are probably cut faster with a router but the tenons take more time so overall I should save a little. Even though the pieces are pretty small, the chairs hold up very well. The design is from WoodSmith.

  8. #38
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    Jim makes some excellent points. In order to compare apples to apples, the size of the joints between floating and integral need to be the same. Otherwise it is not a fair comparison.

    As to the failing bar stools, we don't have any details (and the devil is always in the details) so it is hard to accept a blanket statement as you are making, Jack. I would hazard a guess that the failing joints were not appropriately-sized whereas a M&T joint likely would have been since it can be made ANY size and dominos only come in a small array of sizes.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  9. #39
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    Thanks Jack for the information. I still think that a true M/T joint of the same size as a floating one should have almost equal strength. One problem (as mentioned) is sometimes the floating tenon (e.g. domino) size used is not selected properly.
    Furthermore, there are some situations that one cannot use a floating tenon (even of the same size) in place of a M/T. For example, when the apron of a table goes into a much bigger leg; in that case the tenon can be almost the same size as the apron (just a little smaller) and the leg can accommodate the large mortise whereas you cannot create an equal size mortise in the apron to use a floating tenon. So yes, there are situations that a traditional M/T is superior to a floating one (since we cannot use the floating tenon) but if both can be used the same size I don't see any significant difference between the two.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Padilla View Post
    Jim makes some excellent points. In order to compare apples to apples, the size of the joints between floating and integral need to be the same. Otherwise it is not a fair comparison.

    As to the failing bar stools, we don't have any details (and the devil is always in the details) so it is hard to accept a blanket statement as you are making, Jack. I would hazard a guess that the failing joints were not appropriately-sized whereas a M&T joint likely would have been since it can be made ANY size and dominos only come in a small array of sizes.
    This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.
    Last edited by jack duren; 08-30-2016 at 7:08 PM.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jack duren View Post
    This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.
    It's the old pro vs. amateur debate.

    Believe what Jack says or don't, I'm sure he doesn't care one way or another. I think it's a fantastic tool for certain applications, but I can certainly see its limitations as well.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack duren View Post
    This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.
    I have made no such claims. I'm only asking questions so that I can understand things better. In fact, you've made the claims and I'm not the only one asking questions about those claims. If this was already discussed, can you post a link so we can check it out?
    Last edited by Chris Padilla; 08-30-2016 at 9:50 PM.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack duren View Post
    This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.
    Of course it is not bullet proof. If the bar stools were poorly designed, they will fail; dominoes are not magic. Personally I have used thousands without a failure; I expect nearly all users would say the same.

    Here is a fun fact; the domino was introduced in 2006 and the Kapex in 2007. If I hadn't just looked it up I would have sworn they were separated by at least 5 years.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by jack duren View Post
    I have no pictures of the 700 bar stools made for Chili's restaurant that failed in 2015. All using Domino's. After one or two from each store failed in the first month and replacements sent, after awhile it was obvious all would fail over a period of time and all 700 were replaced with improved versions.
    Geez. All 700. You had to have taken a beating on that job. I'm sorry to hear this.

    With a failure of that number, did you ever squeeze-in time to talk with a KNOWLEDGEABLE Festool rep to get their thoughts? I realize your time is money, but something is clearly wrong - whether it's the tool or the bar stool design or whatever - and I'd want them to know about it.

  15. #45
    congrats on the domino - i predict it will change your approach to construction of many things as that is what it has done for me. I bought it for fast & accurate replacement of more traditional M&T connectors typically in framing uses - rails to styles in doors, legs to aprons in tables, etc. I got one the year it was introduced and have used many thousands of domino's.

    What is surprising is how I have ended up using it vs my intentions when I purchased. I have done 10 times as many 5mm in cabinet case construction than I have ever used for framing.

    let us know how you end up using yours.

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