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Thread: Bench chisel handles

  1. #46
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    Absolutely, power from the palm and fingertips to steady. I like those tapered handles for that reason, easy to grip and a good sized contact area.

    cheers
    Brian
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  2. #47
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    Here's my contribution to the thread - I picked this 3/4" chisel up at a swap meet for a few dollars, turned a new handle for it (the original was about 3" long) and put a 22* bevel on it. I love it for paring. The handle is big and easy to control.

    American connoisseurs will recognize the mark of excellence from the second photo!

    FullSizeRender-20.jpgFullSizeRender-21.jpg

  3. #48
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    Hi Brian

    Thank you for the second video, this one of your right hand.

    Although this is using a paring rather than a bench chisel (which is the topic), a few observations immediately come to mind.

    The first is that I do not see anything different from the way either David or I might hold the same chisel - support with the non- dominant hand and pushing with the dominant hand. However, you appear to push mainly with your arms and shoulders, and not the hips. If you watched David's video, you would see him rocking forward into the chisel, with arms held more firmly.

    The other comment is that the chisel is held at the very end, at the base, and pushed with your palm. Would you do the same if the handle was short, ala a bench chisel? This straight, long handle is typical of a Japanese slick, but imagine it was shorter and a bench chisel handle - it lacks the thumb rest. Does this change the way you would hold the handle, or is this the way you would use it anyway?

    I meant to respond to Steve, but have been sidetracked by my day job. In brief, I agree that there are likely to be as many ways to hold a bench chisel as designs for bench chisel handles.

    With regard vertical paring, it is a method that invites limited control. I would rather use a Japanese bench chisel and a gennou. Alternatively, I would treat the vertical as horizontal, and bench over to do the work. Using the body to power up the chisel now comes from the torso (not the arms) by pressing the chisel into the chest or shoulder and bending forward.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 08-30-2016 at 8:00 PM.

  4. #49
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    It depends on the work being done, for the second video I did not want to overkill the push and break out the backside grain so I use my arms to work the chisel in a circular motion and shear the grain at a skew. For the first video you can't see it but I'm using things and practically stretched out in a lunge position as I peel off those 1/8" thick cross grain shavings.

    I'm not sure that I would want a thumb rest, I like to use the furthest extent of the handle so that small changes at the bevel are only the result of large changes at the end of the handle.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 08-30-2016 at 8:26 PM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Although this is using a paring rather than a bench chisel (which is the topic), a few observations immediately come to mind.

    The first is that I do not see anything different from the way either David or I might hold the same chisel - support with the non- dominant hand and pushing with the dominant hand. However, you appear to push mainly with your arms and shoulders, and not the hips. If you watched David's video, you would see him rocking forward into the chisel, with arms held more firmly.
    The whole obsession with pushing from the legs or hips is getting really over done. Everyone will get to a point where their arms get sore, and at that point they'll figure out they need to involve the bigger muscles. But the idea that every motion must come from the legs is just not right. We push a wheelbarrow with our legs because it's a low-skill operation. But paring is (at least some of the time) a delicate, high-skill operation. The more an operation requires skill and dexterity, the more our arms will dominate. If someone is always locking his arms and shoving from the legs, there's no subtlety, no opportunity to make sensitive adjustments on the fly. The same is true of planing. There is a lot of subtly and discernment to planing well, something we will never experience if we are locking our whole upper body and "walking the plane along" because we're scared we might get carpal tunnel or a sore forearm or something.
    Last edited by Steve Voigt; 08-30-2016 at 10:54 PM.

  6. #51
    Steve,

    I have to disagree. If a paring chisel cut goes to nothing, as when tenting in a half lap, it can be stopped in a controlled manner if the legs are employed.

    If the arms only are used it is as if there are no brakes and the chisel goes shooting through, in an uncontrolled manner.

    David

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by david charlesworth View Post

    If the arms only are used it is as if there are no brakes and the chisel goes shooting through, in an uncontrolled manner.

    David
    I do not agree with this. Your arms and upper body can brake a movement, there are many ways to make controlled paring cuts. You can pare sitting down on a stool to get closer to your work, here the legs are out of the picture, but controlled cuts can be made. Whilst the dominant hand provides the force in the forwards direction, the non-dominant hand limits the amount that is transferred to the cutting edge, often with a finger under the chisel pressing against the work.

  8. #53
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    I'm in David's camp here. The power comes from the body and not the arms. The arms and hands simply guide the chisel.

    Here are two pictures from David's video on chisel use. This the first one he is leaning into the work, but is yet to make the cut. His elbows are tucked in, locking his arm down. He is balanced to rock from the hips ...



    In the next photo, he rocks forward (you can see that he is lower by the position of his head against the window) and makes the cut. The arm remains locked. He does not push the arm forward. It is his body that moves ...



    Now here is Jim Kingshott making a vertical cut into a mortice. In the first photo he positions the chisel in the line, then leans forward and supports the end of the handle with his shoulder/chest ..



    He then leans forward, pushing down with his shoulder/chest. His hands only guide the chisel ..



    The technique of pushing with the shoulder was one advocated by Adam Cherubini, who cited Moxon here.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 08-31-2016 at 6:27 AM.

  9. #54
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    Ah, that perfect world where every paring cut is level or plumb and every planning stroke is right at the edge of the bench.
    Jim

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    The gentle movements of tai chi reduce stress and offer other health benefits.


  11. #56
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    It depends on the work being done, in the first video I'm lunging forward, in the second if you look closely I'm pivoting the edge to sheer off the end grain using the left hand as a pivot point and right hand to work the handle. I don't need to employ my legs in this action.

    In addition to using your body correctly, it is important to use your tools effectively, no need to push into the side of that end grain when I can rotate the chisel and it will sheer the end grain without much physical effort.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  12. #57
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    You may all chuckle a bit on this, but I actully find the SHAPE of the Irwin/Marples handles most comfortable when paring...not so much chopping. The dimensions and double sculpting with thumb support fits my hand well. Need to make a few wooden ones to try on other chisels.

    image.jpg. image.jpg

  13. #58
    I do agree with you, Brian. When we have done a lot of paring work we use many different techniques. We don't always set up individual cuts in the vise, stand and make sure our feet and arms are right and carefully lean into the cut and then stand back and then say "Ah, what a lovely cut!". We use different grips and different stances for different situations, and in the case of carving, often several in the same minute. As James Pallas suggested, not quite a perfect world.

    I am reminded of a lawyer who thought he was a "sharpening guru", teaching classes. He insisted that the whole body had to sway with every stroke in order to sharpen a chisel. But if you are making 40 back and forth strokes in a dozen seconds or so, swaying the body at that pace is unreasonable.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    Ah, that perfect world where every paring cut is level or plumb and every planning stroke is right at the edge of the bench.
    Jim
    They are in the minority but, best for demonstration. There was a guy I golfed with who was writing a book on "recovery golf"; all about how to get out of the hard spots. Maybe we need a book on best-techniques in less than ideal conditions for the bench.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  15. #60
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    Thanks Warren, this reminds me of when I was learning how to TIG weld as a teenager and I had gotten a point where I could make a nice weld. At that point my father said to clamp the piece on the underside of the bench then lay on the floor and weld. I made a mess of it, then he proceeded to make a beautiful weld while upside down. Eventually I learned to overcome this but the lesson stuck with me. In his career he found so often that he had to work in situations which were less than ideal.

    Often times I can setup an ideal at the bench, but if I'm working on something on the floor or on a nearly finished piece it's likely I'll be working in an awkward position. With the caveat that sometimes working on the floor is actually an advantage.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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