Ideal Laser Engraver?

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

Hi,

I have been roaming around the forums for a few weeks and reading up on laser specs and reviews, many thanks for all the information that as been posted.

I am a small sign maker, home based and I am in the market for a laser engraver and cutter. I have a couple of demo's booked with Epilog and Trotec but I am willing to consider the idea of a chinese laser (because of the cost savings). Part of my business already imports goods from Australia, Germany, Italy etc, so I am happy to consider an import. Space is very tight in my small workshop i can accommodate approx a 1200mm wide laser unit.

From what I have read, i believe I would be looking at an 80W laser to cover cutting and engraving 1/4" 6.35mm Oak, Acrylic, MDF, other woods etc.

EFR tubes seem to be well thought of at this moment on the forum. Not sure of the best controller, I am still reading and learning.

Speed is not essential but engraving quality, finish of the cut material and machine uptime are essential!!!

Is there any chinese spec machines that can match or come close to Epilog / Trotec machines.

Thanks in advance

Daz...

[Bert Kemp]

Is there any chinese spec machines that can match Epilog / Trotec.

simple answer NO

But there are decent Chinese machines, they are slower but do a decent job at a 3rd or less the cost.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

What i am trying to understand is at a 1/3 of the cost of a Epilog / Trotec would i be expected to see a 1/3 of the quality and reliability of the more expensive machines or am I being too pessimistic?

[Bert Kemp]

Again and this is just my opinion I would say no.
a decent quality Chinese laser does perfectly exceptable work. many of the guys here use them in their business.

[David Somers]

Darrell,

For a Chinese machine, cutting speeds will be close to the same as for a western machine of equivalent power. It is engraving speed where the difference shows, and Trotec will be the clear leader of the pack.

In terms of quality of the work? On a well adjusted machine you would have to hold them up to each other to see the difference. I recently saw the famed Epilog "Mayan Calendar" engraved and cut by an Epi and also engraved and cut on an 80 watt Chinese machine with similar lens focal lengths. With a magnifying glass I think I could tell the difference, but simply looking at them with the naked eye I could not see it. If you were working solely in wood I think you would have a hard time seeing the difference. Wood is simply not that exact a material. For example. This photo was taken of a snowflake I just cut on an 80 watt EFR tube with a 2in lens on my Chinese machine. The diameter is between 1.5 and 2 in. It is pretty fine detail for cutting wood, and came out pretty nice in my opinion. This was maple BTW, and immedietly after the cut. I haven't picked it yet so there is still a little stuck piece or two in it.

IMG_0289.jpg

In terms of reliability. Not sure how to quantify that. If you buy direct from China you will find getting tech support from a good company is still a bit of a challenge because of language differences, and also because of date and time differences and the holidays kept in China. Some are quite long and you wont find much if any support while they are going. They will be there for you, but not 24x7 and not without some effort on both your parts. However, Chinese machines are far more generic than the western machines, so you can turn to almost anyone for parts and support. You don't have to go back to the manufacturer for anything other than warranted replacements if needed.

If you buy from China direct AND are somewhat sensitive to down time you should probably be fairly independent in terms of comfort around mechanical repairs and electronics. You dont need to be an electronics engineer, but you should be comfortable getting into things and have a fair understanding of what is what so you can diagnose and make repairs yourself, or with direction over the phone.

If you are more sensitive to downtime or not as savvy with mechanical and electronics as you might want you may want to consider purchasing a Chinese machine from a US company like Rabbit laser USA or Bodor or Automation Technology (an SMC supporter I believe) or someone who imports these machines into the US and then goes over them carefully and provides support directly. In the case of Rabbit Laser they even bring your machine to you, help you set it up so you learn how to align and diagnose and fix problems, and then show you how to operate the machine. That is a huge head start for a new user with a low tolerance for downtime or fussing about time.

I can't give you any numbers on reliability of Chinese machines other than anecdotally. For my own experience, I have not had any downtime from failures. Only from my own mistakes. If I do have an outage I am comfortable getting into the machine and digging. I know I can rely on my manufacturer for help, provided I am patient with the date/time and language barriers. And I dont mind going to Mainland sources for help and paying for that if needed.

If you are a production shop with a heavy reliance on that machine I might suggest Trotec for speed and support.
Or
Do something like find two decent used Epilogs or similar machines so that you have a spare if one goes down. I had a neighbor with an engraving/trophy shop in West Seattle who did that. He found 3 Epi's in good shape used. If one went down he had the others to keep working. He did mostly engraving so having all 3 running was not unusual for him. He rarely cut so he wasn't tied to watching the cutting machine closely. (fire is a big risk when cutting and you should not take your eyes off a working cut job. That makes it hard/risky to be a single user with multiple machines doing cuts.)

Hope that helps and jives with everyone else's thoughts?

Dave

[Bert Kemp]

Just to add to what Dave said. I had a really bad experience with another laser company which you can read about here if you search my posts. But after that Rabbit was recommended and I bought a 6040 with a 60watt tube from them 2 years ago. I was really apprehensive about going from the machine I had as it was easy to use but had lousy support and a few other problems. People here convinced me it would not be a problem. Ray at Rabbit Laser gave me a days training and I've been running for 2 years now with very little problems most of which were corel related.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

In terms of quality of the work? On a well adjusted machine you would have to hold them up to each other to see the difference

Thank you both for your advice and views.

David you mention "on a well adjusted machine". Does this mean for example i.e: mirrors aligned, clean lenses, correct extraction, cool tube etc or does it refer to tweaks of the machine after it was delivered, i.e: upgrading parts on the machine etc?

Also does a RF tube help with quality over the CO2 tubes? I know of 2 x UK suppliers of imported chinese lasers both about 50 miles of where I am based, one claims to offer an RF tube as an upgrade option but it comes at a price which is understandable (not sure if I can post links to products offered)

I am begining to build a spec \ list for a chinese laser should I decide to go down that route:

Purpose: Quality Cutting and Quality Engraving 1/4" Acrylic Wood etc:
Power: 240V
80W Laser: Co2 \ RF
Approx 1200mm Max Width Cabinet (Not yet sure if a 80W Laser tube would fit)
XY Motors: Servo \ Stepper?
Z Motor: Servos \ Stepper?
DSP: Make Model????
Motherboard: ?
Network Cat 5 \ USB
Zense Lenses: Sizes?
Mirrors: ??
Air Assist:
Chiller Cooler:

Daz...

[Mike Null]

When assuming that the Chinese laser is one third the cost of the metal or ceramic tube machines, keep in mind that is just the initial cost. If you read the posts you will find that in virtually every instance there is frequent parts replacement, particularly tubes and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

As far as I'm concerned those considerations should be factored into the cost comparison. Then too, resale value of the ULS, Trotecs and Epilogs is multiples of Chinese lasers.

That said, if your budget is limited, or if you're looking for a hobby machine there are Chinese machines that will fit the bill.

[Dave Sheldrake]

and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

A common misconception Mike there are a lot of posts here about Chinese machine down time but then again not many people post on forums saying how happy they are with any given item.

Darrell, re-gassing RF tubes is REALLY expensive here, my Speedy 300 120 watt will cost £6,500 to have regassed and the speedy is almost 2x the cost here that it is in the US.

Be VERY careful with UK dealers selling lasers...in the entire country there are only two worth bothering with and of those two only one has a real laser guy running it (and I mean somebody that knows these things inside out and the go to guy I call when I'm stuck) and thats HPC Lasers in Halifax.

RF tubes are great and 99% of the time premium quality but UK wise the RF machines cost a LOT more to buy and maintain.

Looking at your specs

LS1290 with an 80 watt tube from HPC...If folks knew how my 1290 had been treated their hair would fall out (left outside in the rain etc, moved workplaces 4 times, abused, taken apart, generally beaten up) and it's sat next to me running nicely In 7 years it's had 2 tubes, 1 set of mirrors and the usual £25 len's changes. When I need anything for it, I pick up the phone and it's with me the next day

[Jerome Stanek]

When assuming that the Chinese laser is one third the cost of the metal or ceramic tube machines, keep in mind that is just the initial cost. If you read the posts you will find that in virtually every instance there is frequent parts replacement, particularly tubes and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

As far as I'm concerned those considerations should be factored into the cost comparison. Then too, resale value of the ULS, Trotecs and Epilogs is multiples of Chinese lasers.

That said, if your budget is limited, or if you're looking for a hobby machine there are Chinese machines that will fit the bill.

If your Speedy tube goes out how long and how much is it. I can have a new 60watt tube and install in 1 day and it would only be $400 plus tax for me.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

Thanks for peoples input!!

Dave, HPC is one of the companies who I mentioned in a previous email. I have spoken to them but not in depth but have enquired about a demo, which are every Friday. They have already sent me some samples etc.

The other business is called 'Just Add Sharks' in Nottingham. I don't really know anything about them except they are part of hackspace and Maker Faire.

Just Add Sharks are good at responding to emails. I have enquired about their Greyfin and Whitetooth models (specs are on their website), they use steppers, 1000DPI and 0.1mm kerf. The tubes are now 'Yongli A2' as they were having problems with RECI tubes according to our email chats. Their units have a current meter so you can monitor power to the tube, I have also enquired with them about a demo which is fine.

As you can see I am researching as much as possible at the moment, from a cost point of view, I am open to options. I tend to make orders on the fly. i.e: when an order comes in I will make it. Hence my concern over reliability, last thing I need from a customer service point of view is a machine that has issues and orders to fulfil.

In a way I am wanting the best of both worlds, cheap but quality and reliability which, I know rarely come together!!

Daz....

[Dave Sheldrake]

AddSharks are imported / rebranded Weikes,to be honest they haven't been around long and Martyn isn't a laser specialist. He bought himself a machine, saw the import prices and decided to buy more in to sell. YongLi tubes are cheap...nowhere near the quality of Reci's that have been set up properly.

Kerf is controlled by the tubes beam...not by the seller of the machines pretty much all Chinese machines use steppers (other than a few that use servo's).

Current meters measure residual current from the tube from that you best guess the current going into the tube.

If I had a £1 for every seller I've seen pop up in the UK selling lasers I wouldn't be working, then again if I had a £1 for every one I'd seen collapse inside 2 years I'd be even richer

[Matt McCoy]

When assuming that the Chinese laser is one third the cost of the metal or ceramic tube machines, keep in mind that is just the initial cost. If you read the posts you will find that in virtually every instance there is frequent parts replacement, particularly tubes and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

As far as I'm concerned those considerations should be factored into the cost comparison. Then too, resale value of the ULS, Trotecs and Epilogs is multiples of Chinese lasers.

That said, if your budget is limited, or if you're looking for a hobby machine there are Chinese machines that will fit the bill.

Hey there Mike: I think "virtually every instance" and "frequent parts replacement" is not necessarily true. Maybe it seems high for those looking for help on SMC, but probably doesn't reflect a true ratio considering the amount of machines sold. How many times does someone register for a forum then post "Everything is pretty great -- no problems here!"? Glass tubes are a consumable, like printer cartridges, and will eventually need to be replaced. Since most parts are not proprietary, they are typically inexpensive and widely available from from lots of vendors quickly. My personal experience with 4 Chinese lasers that see a lot of use, is a few new tubes and a warranty-replaced power supply in four years.

Chinese lasers are not just for hobbyists or budget-limited mom and pop start-ups with no capital, but a viable option for lots of businesses. China is the manufacturer to the world (trademark pending, I'm sure) and you would probably find lots of factories with Chinese-built lasers in them cranking out parts.

[Keith Winter]

I would side with Mike on this. While the problems with Chinese lasers are generally much cheaper to fix they do occur more often and they tend to go out of alignment and such more easily, and more often, requiring more maintenance. Secondly you have a warranty and generally better support with US made machines.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

I was a little wary of AddSharks because I couldn't find much info on them, that's not saying they are not reputable dealers. Thanks for your opinion.

I will have a drive up to HPC once Epilog and Trotec have shown me what their machines can do but I will also keep looking at the possibility of a chinese import.

At the minute the chinese manufacturers I have managed to shortlist are Weike, Thunder laser, Ray Fines, there may be more but I am still doing my homework.

Am I right in assuming that 'IF' I contacted a chinese factory direct for a quote, that any piece of hardware for example an AWC 708 controller can work with any tube etc, etc or is it a bit more complicated than this.

Daz...