Me too ......Originally Posted by Ben Rivel
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Me too ......
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Comments such as these make me laugh. You do realize the 800b gorilla that Gass was fighting was the Power Tool Institute (PTI) which represents Black & Decker, Hilti, Hitachi Koki, Makita, Metabo, Bosch, Techtronic Industries and WMH Tool Group. So you side with the giant PTI instead of the little guy back during 2000-2006 when Gass was trying to license the tech to Ryobi and others?. And now that his product is a known, has some of the highest quality for table saws worldwide, your beef is a misunderstood interpretation of how he got to where he is.
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Me three...
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That's actually a very good question. As folks may or may not be aware, the EU has some very strict rules in regards to what is and isn't permitted in terms of what a saw or other ww'ing machine can do. For example, dado on a table saw is a forbidden cut in the EU since it is a blind non-through cut being performed by the human hand.
The SS is forbidden because apparently, shrapnel could fly up towards the operator when the brake engages.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
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After Gass got turned down by the big boys, then and only then he petitioned the CPSC to require his invention to be on all new saws sold in the US. In fact, he was concerned about his rejection and making money just like the big boys. Art's interpretation isn't a misunderstanding, it just a different point of view with which I happen to agree. In fact, before Gass ever manufactured the saw and sold one here, I argued with Gass here at the Creek. His argument was disingenuous. If he'd applied to the CPSC before presenting his product to the Big Boys, I'd have to agreed with Gass's arguments. Gass is a patent attorney and his concern is more about his financial gain than consumer safety.
His products appear to be of a good quality but like Art, I will never buy one. I hope Bosch develops a cabinet saw. It's a short drive to Canada.
Last edited by Ken Fitzgerald; 09-13-2016 at 6:46 PM.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
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I was told by the (then) Business Unit Manager of Minimax USA that they were approached about licensing the technology and that SCM was open to the idea until they learned the cost that was being asked for, in order to license that technology. Suffice it to say, there is NO manufacturer in any sector of this industry that would be able pay the number I heard without pricing themselves out of the market.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
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AMEN...from everything I've read about the history of the SS...as a fact my employer lost his manual to the jobsite version and SS charged him about $50 for a replacement...??? I think/hope if Bosch takes this to the end they will prevail...I just can't see how a concept such as an emergency brake on a table saw is patentable...
on the flip side, there is the concept of quantities of scale...e.g. if every saw had SS technology then the cost per unit would be way lower than it is now...if Gass was really concerned about worker safety then he would allow use at a reasonable price and then proceed to still market his products (which I have to admit are pretty darned good) and compete on a fair test of quality.
Last edited by Keith Outten; 09-14-2016 at 9:44 AM.
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Just a question out of curiosity, not meant to stir the pot. Is anyone aware of a case where the SS brake failed or malfunctioned in a way that injured the operator?
Like many of you here, I know folks who own the machine and are happy with it but this is an interesting discussion to explore, as long as it doesn't devolve into a bash-fest.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
[OP]
Member
+1 on the laughing.
Do all of you who would buy a Bosch or other Reaxx equipped tablesaw honestly think for a moment that Bosch, WMH, B&D, SCMI, etc... wouldn't defend their IP or lobby for regulation if they had been the first to make a tablesaw that wouldn't cut wieners or fingers? Do you think Bosch will let other manufacturers use their Reaxx system free of charge or for less than SawStop would have charged established manufacturers to license the idea 12+ years ago? Do know that this is the same Bosch that's complicit in VW's emissions scheme? Oh yeah... just some more pointless guvment regulations.
I understand the vilification that Gass experienced when he petitioned the CSPC to mandate stopping systems, but I do not get the widespread embrace of Bosch's entry (infringement) in the market. This is a classic David vs Goliath story with many of the bystanders routing for Goliath because David asked the referees to give him a handicap.
I personally would like to see SawStop license their "flesh detecting technology" to other manufacturers for reasonable compensation so that new, innovative methods of stopping/dropping could be incorporated into more tablesaws and other machines. But I understand Gass/SawStop's defense of IP and patents, especially considering the way the industry stonewalled his efforts to bring safer machines to market back in 2000-2003.
BTW, SawStop has partnered with Griggio on the Unica Safe, so while SawStop saws themselves don't meet European safety standards, there are saws in Europe using licensed (I assume) SawStop technology which predate Bosch's Reaxx system, I imagine this may come into play in litigation here or there.
Kevin Groenke
@personmakeobject on instagram
Fabrication Director,UMN College of Design (retired!)
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The news itself is neutral to me as a SS owner. The course will run itself and in the end, one side will prevail in court. By then, we can talk about its consequences and implications.
After using SS for almost 9 years, I have had zero close calls or quality issue with the PCS. It has paid for itself as during the years, at least half a hundred pieces of furniture were made possible because of the premium saw.
Someone asked about failure rate of SS. Zero since it has been launched and you can get that confirmation from SS. One of the company executives made that statement to the press. But we all know some people said in some forums (Lumberjocks?) that they heard someone was hurt because the SS didn't work and blah blah blah ... without providing any support when challenged.
Simon
Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 09-13-2016 at 8:27 PM.
Contributor
Yep, that's correct and very interesting as well. I didn't go to IWF this year, so didn't get a chance to see what was going on with Griggio but whatever they have done, it would have to comply with EU standards. From their video, the brake behaviorally seems to act like the Reaxx and not like the SS, yet SS is partnered with them. Perhaps it is a Bosch brake and has none of SS's DNA in it and SS simply partnered up with them in order to get a branding/marketing foothold in the EU? Griggio is probably the smallest of the slider manufacturers in Italy, so perhaps they were willing to talk with SS when nobody else would? I don't know. I'm schedule to to go to Atlanta in a couple of weeks for some marketing meetings. I'll see what I can find out from the Italians about it.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
Contributor
Patents only protect in the country that issues the patent. So a US patent only applies to products sold in the US. I don't know how the EU works now as far as patents go. That is, can you get an EU patent or do you have to get a patent in each country. For a patent attorney, it would not be that expensive to get patents in most of the European countries and in Canada.
IF SawStop has patents in Europe and Canada, I expect they will bring a complaint in those countries now that they got a ruling in the US.
Mike
[Patents have a lifetime so eventually the SawStop patents will expire and anyone will be able to build flesh sensing table saws. As a patent holder, I support the right of patent holders to enforce their patents.]
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 09-13-2016 at 8:31 PM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
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Just a quick side trip--Business Unit Manager? BUM???? Got to be one of the toughest rungs on the corporate ladder at SCM!!
Back to the topic...I wish I could get over my distaste for the SawStop tactic, because they do indeed look like an excellent machine with the technology notwithstanding. Beyond that, for me having a single source for a component that would keep a high dollar machine running, I can't take that level of investment risk with my tool budget. Concern was expressed over the possibility of not being able to source Bosch cartridges in the US, but Bosch is much more likely to survive longer than a relatively small company, and sourcing parts from another nation is not as tough as it would be sourcing SS cartridges IF they folded.
(to be clear, I know nothing of their financials or any "hidden skeletons" or implying concerns of financial instability--just saying I personally couldn't risk having to trash a great saw for lack of a part that can't be duplicated)
earl
Contributor
IMO, Gass didnt just ask for a handicap. A handicap would be asking the Refs to let him throw his stone first while making Goliath stand still. Gass' trying to force everyone to buy technology he controlled via the CPSC was more like asking the Refs to chain Goliath to a tree and give David an assault rifle.
Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 09-13-2016 at 8:48 PM.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
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Hahaha, I'll have to save that for later use.
Kidding aside, I want to float something else out there. SS's aren't cheap. So, I don't really know how much of the market share they really have. For customers who actually shop around and don't just blindly fall for the fear-based marketing (I'm not knocking them but I wish you guys could see the booth they put up at the big trade shows. Basically, "Buy ours, or else", with photos of dudes with 9 fingers, etc.) they are substantially more expensive than a lot of other Chaiwanese table saws and their "Industrial" model is not that much cheaper than Minimax entry-level sliding table saw. Their machine looks really well built but I'm not personally convinced how big of a piece of the pie they have. And keep in mind that their pie is only North America. Not Europe or Asia.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
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