Choosing between Epilog and Universal for a first machine

[ludovic chenaux]

If I had money I'd buy the Mini24.

My first choice was Epilog but now I have an offer at the same price for the VLS 3.50 I'm confused
It lacks Ethernet but has a bigger bed.
Servos vs stepper, is it that important ?
I tried the Epilog Mini, but the ULS rep. doesn't have the VLS 3.50 for demo.


This machine is for a side project business, I don't want to spend to much money but I want something reliable and fast.

[Dan Hollis]

We have an epilog helix (60W) and a universal vls4.60 (50W) in the local makerspace.

The epilog rasters about 2x as fast as the universal. because the epilog uses servos and the universal uses steppers.

The universal cuts thick wood and acrylic way better than the epilog. the epilog chars the crap out of stuff and requires multiple passes. the universal punches clean through on first pass. because we have coaxial air assist on the universal and lateral air assist on the epilog.

Both machines have their quirks. I find myself using the universal more, mainly due to the ability to cleanly and easily cut thick wood.

I regularly push the limits of the bed size, but then i'm currently using these machines to make plywood furniture probably not typical for your average maker. 24"x18" is just barely big enough to hold the plywood sheets I work with. I'd love something more like 24x24. though once i get my shaper origin, i may stop using the universal for plywood altogether. who knows. that's still a year away though

The ideal laser cutter for me would have coaxial air assist and servos. Both are good machines, but if I could choose only one machine from the makerspace, it would be the univeral.

FWIW I use gimp, inkscape and visio to drive these laser cutters.

[Rich Harman]

...the epilog chars the crap out of stuff and requires multiple passes. the universal punches clean through on first pass. because we have coaxial air assist on the universal and lateral air assist on the epilog.

I don't think the direction the air is coming from should make much difference in cutting ability. I've tried it both ways on mine, either way worked fine. I suspect that there is something else going on for there to be such a discrepancy in cutting performance.

[Dan Hollis]

I don't think the direction the air is coming from should make much difference in cutting ability. I've tried it both ways on mine, either way worked fine. I suspect that there is something else going on for there to be such a discrepancy in cutting performance.

watching both machines cut, it's pretty obvious what's going on. the epilog just pushes air all around around on the surface and it swirls around and gets in the way of the laser, the mirrors, the lens, etc.

on the universal, the smoke never gets in the way of the laser. it either gets blasted down through the bottom of the cut or off to the side.

[ludovic chenaux]

Thank you Dan

Now i'm more between Mini 24 and VLS 3.50, I think the Mini 18 is not enough.

[Dan Hollis]

Thank you Dan

Now i'm more between Mini 24 and VLS 3.50, I think the Mini 18 is not enough.

yes, the mini 18 is pretty small. even with the helix 24 with 24"x18" there are times i'd like to have more space.

[Ross Moshinsky]

We have an epilog helix (60W) and a universal vls4.60 (50W) in the local makerspace.

The epilog rasters about 2x as fast as the universal. because the epilog uses servos and the universal uses steppers.

The universal cuts thick wood and acrylic way better than the epilog. the epilog chars the crap out of stuff and requires multiple passes. the universal punches clean through on first pass. because we have coaxial air assist on the universal and lateral air assist on the epilog.

Both machines have their quirks. I find myself using the universal more, mainly due to the ability to cleanly and easily cut thick wood.

I regularly push the limits of the bed size, but then i'm currently using these machines to make plywood furniture probably not typical for your average maker. 24"x18" is just barely big enough to hold the plywood sheets I work with. I'd love something more like 24x24. though once i get my shaper origin, i may stop using the universal for plywood altogether. who knows. that's still a year away though

The ideal laser cutter for me would have coaxial air assist and servos. Both are good machines, but if I could choose only one machine from the makerspace, it would be the univeral.

FWIW I use gimp, inkscape and visio to drive these laser cutters.

That's not true. If it was, that would mean the VLS engraves at about 40ips and I can tell you it doesn't. Epilog and ULS are both rated at 80-90ips.

[Paul Phillips]

Make sure your'e comparing apples to apples, the drivers are a bit different, maybe you can try changing some of the settings in the ULS driver to speed it up, make sure your image density is not above 5 and image enhancement is turned off. Image density will add more passes and slow it down, as far as I know at 100% speed they should be at least close in speed.

[Keith Winter]

watching both machines cut, it's pretty obvious what's going on. the epilog just pushes air all around around on the surface and it swirls around and gets in the way of the laser, the mirrors, the lens, etc.

on the universal, the smoke never gets in the way of the laser. it either gets blasted down through the bottom of the cut or off to the side.

Not correct. What you are seeing is related to the cone used, velocity of the air assist (can be adjusted), and down draft suction of the cutting table.

[Dan Hollis]

Not correct. What you are seeing is related to the cone used, velocity of the air assist (can be adjusted), and down draft suction of the cutting table.

is coaxial air assist even an option for the epilog helix 24?

[Dan Hollis]

That's not true. If it was, that would mean the VLS engraves at about 40ips and I can tell you it doesn't. Epilog and ULS are both rated at 80-90ips.

they may have the same max linear travel rate but the epilog doesn't have to worry about skipping steps due to the positional feedback, it definitely reverses direction faster. the uls has to be careful not to accelerate/decelerate too fast and skip steps, all steppers are limited in that regard.

max velocity on the sales brochure doesn't tell the whole story here.

here's two videos showing pretty much exactly the same thing we see.

epilog rastering

universal rastering

you can see the universal taking its time reversing direction, appearing to pause at the end of each line. the epilog gets around to its business of the next line much quicker than the universal, it reverses direction virtually instantaneously.

i still prefer the universal for the projects i do, but it's something to think about if you do mostly rastering. pure specs from sheets isn't enough.

[Keith Winter]

is coaxial air assist even an option for the epilog helix 24?

If we were talking about engraving I could potentially see some validity to your point. You were talking about cutting though, this photo is engraving, two different things. Secondly on engraving, air assist can be turned off many times depending on material, so even engraving that point isn't very valid.

Back to your original statement about cutting.... When cutting, the velocity of air and the downdraft suction of the cutting table are the biggest problem. If you don't have enough downdraft suction or air assist velocity (adjustable) it will make burn mark or a mess on the top as you suggest. Other factors such as lens selection and distance from the material can additionally affect this when cutting as well.

[Keith Winter]

they may have the same max linear travel rate but the epilog doesn't have to worry about skipping steps due to the positional feedback, it definitely reverses direction faster. the uls has to be careful not to accelerate/decelerate too fast and skip steps, all steppers are limited in that regard.

max velocity on the sales brochure doesn't tell the whole story here.

here's two videos showing pretty much exactly the same thing we see.

epilog rastering

universal rastering

you can see the universal taking its time reversing direction, appearing to pause at the end of each line. the epilog gets around to its business of the next line much quicker than the universal, it reverses direction virtually instantaneously.

i still prefer the universal for the projects i do, but it's something to think about if you do mostly rastering. pure specs from sheets isn't enough.

There are so many things wrong with these video samples.

1. We have no idea the power or lens used on each laser (universal does say power)
2. They are doing different designs and we don't know how big they are
3. We don't know what settings they are using or if the are even running full speed.
4. That is a super speed ULS it engraves two lines at once. Not a normal ULS

[ludovic chenaux]

Do you think it's possible to have a better price at a show than the standard discount ?

[Paul Phillips]

There are so many things wrong with these video samples.

1. We have no idea the power or lens used on each laser (universal does say power)
2. They are doing different designs and we don't know how big they are
3. We don't know what settings they are using or if the are even running full speed.
4. That is a super speed ULS it engraves two lines at once. Not a normal ULS

I would agree, not a valid comparison (see my earlier reply #23). The argument of steppers vs servos is not that cut and dried IMO. Here's an interesting discussion of why Universal uses steppers, Mike McKenzie post #3.
http://www.engravingetc.org/archive/...g=EE&msg=872.1