Choosing between Epilog and Universal for a first machine

[ludovic chenaux]

Hello
I'd like to start a business in Switzerland (cut and engrave 3mm PMMA/MDF) and I need your advices for my first laser machine.

I had first a 5000€ budget and after many searches I realized that it was far not enough for a serious and reliable tool.
Now after several negociations with some dealers (and a big increase of my budget) I have 3 choices :

1 - Epilog Mini 40W (18"x12", servo motors, air assist, engraving table, cutting table, linear encoders...) with 3 years warranty (laser tube and machine) and a G30 filter table from Germany.

2 - for around the same price Universal Laser Versalaser 3.50 40W (24"x12", stepper motors, air assist, engraving table, cutting table...) with 3 years warranty (laser tube and machine) and a Bofa base 1 filter table (UK).

3 - for 2200€ more than the 2 others Epilog Mini + 40W (24"x12"...same as Mini) with 3 years warranty (laser tube and machine) and a G30 filter table from Germany.


Steppers vs servos ?
Reliability of the 2 brands ?
Which costs the least for parts replacement ?
Speed ?
Quality ?
Epilog vs Universal Drivers ? (I use Illustrator CC and Epilog seems to be designed for CorelDraw)
Limits with 18" area compared to the 24" ?


It seems the good deal is the ULS but I tried only the Epilog Mini+ (unfortunately the 2200€ extra is 2200€ beyond my extended budget but if you think it really worth the price I can deal with it).
Which one would you recommend and why ?



Thank you very much

[Rich Harman]

I would consider a Trotec as well. I think you can get a Sawmill Creek discount.

[Keith Downing]

Hello
I'd like to start a business in Switzerland (cut and engrave 3mm PMMA/MDF) and I need your advices for my first laser machine.

I had first a 5000€ budget and after many searches I realized that it was far not enough for a serious and reliable tool.
Now after several negociations with some dealers (and a big increase of my budget) I have 3 choices :

1 - Epilog Mini 40W (18"x12", servo motors, air assist, engraving table, cutting table, linear encoders...) with 3 years warranty (laser tube and machine) and a G30 filter table from Germany.

2 - for around the same price Universal Laser Versalaser 3.50 40W (24"x12", stepper motors, air assist, engraving table, cutting table...) with 3 years warranty (laser tube and machine) and a Bofa base 1 filter table (UK).

3 - for 2200€ more than the 2 others Epilog Mini + 40W (24"x12"...same as Mini) with 3 years warranty (laser tube and machine) and a G30 filter table from Germany.


Steppers vs servos ?
Reliability of the 2 brands ?
Which costs the least for parts replacement ?
Speed ?
Quality ?
Epilog vs Universal Drivers ? (I use Illustrator CC and Epilog seems to be designed for CorelDraw)
Limits with 18" area compared to the 24" ?


It seems the good deal is the ULS but I tried only the Epilog Mini+ (unfortunately the 2200€ extra is 2200€ beyond my extended budget but if you think it really worth the price I can deal with it).
Which one would you recommend and why ?



Thank you very much

Think you're not getting a lot of responses because you're asking a question that: 1. Has been asked a lot on these forums already (try the search feature) and 2. Not a ton of people here have used both the Epilog Mini and the Universal you highlighted.

Can't say I blame you for asking though given the cost of the purchase. Just thought I'd give you a heads up.

I don't run either, so I can't offer much help myself. What I can throw in though, is that the general consensus is to get the largest, most powerful machine you think you could end up needing and can reasonably afford. No one ever really complains later they wish they hadn't bought such an amazing machine to start with.

Also, I don't know what your options are there (Switzerland I'm assuming) but I know around here in the states there are usually some used machines available at about 50-60% what you would pay for a new machine. That might be another option for stretching your budget. Or financing the machine if you can get a business line of credit.

[Keith Downing]

In case you're not having much success navigating the search feature, here are two pretty active threads that talk about some of the good and bad of the epilog, trotec, and universal lasers from earlier this year:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...nother-thread)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...rsal-vs-Trotec

[John Noell]

Be sure to have them cut a piece of the PMMA/MDF to show you what 40 watts can do. I got by for years with 45 watts (an original Mini 18) but I am now enjoying what a bit more power can do. If I was starting over, I would buy two Chinese lasers instead of one Mini. I also had several negative interactions with Epilog tech support. Many will swear by them but not me. Yes, I did get some apologies, afterwards. But they still stuck me with a $1,000 board even though it was their driver that was at fault. Never again.

[Kev Williams]

All I can offer is this:

I bought a 5 year old New Hermes branded ULS from my NH rep in '02. He used it daily at his shop since new, plus it got hauled to every trade show in the country and demo'd during that first 5 years. I got it with a new tube. (there was nothing wrong with the old one, my rep just changed it out for me)

I used it daily until a year ago, and sold it to my BIL.

About 4 years ago I changed the tube, simply because a replacement became available cheap. There was nothing wrong with the second tube.

My BIL has engraved wood boxes in for 8-10 hours every night since he got it from me.

It'll be 20 years old in a few months, and it still runs like new. It has never suffered a breakdown of any kind. The original mirrors and 2" lens are still in use, as are the original Y belts. The ONLY parts that's ever been replaced besides the tubes, 2 X belts, 1 set of X rail roller bearings, and the X stepper motor that, it turns out, didn't need replacing (when changing and adjusting the X belt the last time, I tightened one screw too tight and twisted the motor housing slightly, causing it to make a slight scraping noise. It still works just fine)

For that reason, my nod goes to the ULS.

[ludovic chenaux]

I would consider a Trotec as well. I think you can get a Sawmill Creek discount.

Trotec is more expensive, they don't care if I have a better price with Epilog and ULS.

(...)Also, I don't know what your options are there (Switzerland I'm assuming) but I know around here in the states there are usually some used machines available at about 50-60% what you would pay for a new machine. That might be another option for stretching your budget. Or financing the machine if you can get a business line of credit.

Switzerland is a small country and an expensive one sadly

In case you're not having much success navigating the search feature, here are two pretty active threads that talk about some of the good and bad of the epilog, trotec, and universal lasers from earlier this year:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241982-Trotec-VS-Epilog-(yes-another-thread)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...rsal-vs-Trotec

Thank you

[Matt McCoy]

Switzerland is not part of the EU -- correct? Are there any VAT, tax, or shipping advantages that might be considered by purchasing a Trotec from your neighbors in Austria?

[Paul Phillips]

Ludovic, welcome to the Creek! I purchased a Universal after looking at the big three makers first hand at a sign convention and although i think ULS and Epilog are very close in quality what sold me was the software and driver interface of the ULS which seemed way ahead of Epilog. I'm a more visual person and the ULS software appealed to me more on that basis I think. I have had my ULS going on 7 years, I use it every day and would say that it is very reliable, the only thing I have had to replace are belt and bearings which are normal and not too expensive. I did have to have a tube recharged which I found out can be done by a 3rd party for much less than the manufacturer. i would agree with what others have told you, send a sample and have them cut some for you. 40 watts will not cut MDF very fast so something like 50 or 60 watts would probably be better. FWIW Trotec do make the Rayjet which is their entry level machine, you might see what the prices are on those. Hope this helps.

[Keith Winter]

Agreed driver of a new ULS is light-years beyond Epilog.

Ludovic, welcome to the Creek! I purchased a Universal after looking at the big three makers first hand at a sign convention and although i think ULS and Epilog are very close in quality what sold me was the software and driver interface of the ULS which seemed way ahead of Epilog. I'm a more visual person and the ULS software appealed to me more on that basis I think. I have had my ULS going on 7 years, I use it every day and would say that it is very reliable, the only thing I have had to replace are belt and bearings which are normal and not too expensive. I did have to have a tube recharged which I found out can be done by a 3rd party for much less than the manufacturer. i would agree with what others have told you, send a sample and have them cut some for you. 40 watts will not cut MDF very fast so something like 50 or 60 watts would probably be better. FWIW Trotec do make the Rayjet which is their entry level machine, you might see what the prices are on those. Hope this helps.

[ludovic chenaux]

Switzerland is not part of the EU -- correct? Are there any VAT, tax, or shipping advantages that might be considered by purchasing a Trotec from your neighbors in Austria?

Exact, it's a freedom country surrounded by the EU .

My 3 offers from ULS and Epilog are from dealers in France. This way it's far less expensive than a purchase in Switzerland, even with customs tax (...)

[Ross Moshinsky]

ULS wins on software by quite a bit. Epilog has the advantage on build quality by a smaller amount. ULS used to have a major advantage that their cost of a recharged tube was really reasonable. About a year ago their prices dramatically increased. Now I'd say it's a wash. Speed and quality is probably about the same. I didn't notice a distinct difference when I was shopping around.

Also one thing, these lasers are basically printers. They will run off MS word if you want to use it. Corel Draw is the unofficial software for the engraving industry. It started that way many years ago and has stayed that way. Personally, I have it but very rarely use it. I do my work with Illustrator or Gravostyle.

Lastly, look at the Gravograph LS100 machine. The software driver is not as good as the other companies, but the actual machine is far superior. My LS100 is comparable to a Trotec Speedy100. I will warn you, customer service is very hit or miss and replacement parts are ridiculously overpriced. Recently, I've noticed an improvement in customer service, but honestly, I call them very rarely.

[Paul Phillips]

ULS wins on software by quite a bit. Epilog has the advantage on build quality by a smaller amount. ULS used to have a major advantage that their cost of a recharged tube was really reasonable. About a year ago their prices dramatically increased. Now I'd say it's a wash. Speed and quality is probably about the same. I didn't notice a distinct difference when I was shopping around.

I started a thread a while back about how the ULS price increased from a relatively reasonable (within industry standards) $1250 for a tube recharge to $2150 which prompted me to find an alternative which was Evergreen Laser Repair who ended up charging only $750. Just saying, there are alternatives to the Manufacturer once it's out of warranty.
I have a 15 year old Gravograph rotary engraver and would agree about their customer service, once you have a really disappointing experience with a manufacturer it's really hard to get past that, also, never really liked the software.

[Kev Williams]

To expound on Ross's post (a lot, sorry!)--

With the exception of the GCC I got from Gary and the 2 Triumph lasers, everything I own is New Hermes-- machines, saws, shears, grinders, beveller, corner-notcher-- and my NH rep sold us every piece. The combined ages of all my machines is over 275 years. The combined 'lost time' breakdowns in those 275 years: 3 power supplies... 2 of those were just last year, that run my IS7000. The second one that died was the one my NH rep borrowed me, I'm now using a second borrowed one, a really old honker from an IS400, but it does the job. My rep has my original and works on it in his spare time, in hopes he can save me the factory pricing to fix it. The other power supply that failed was in my LS900 laser, went south about 4 years ago. I've had a few issues with some of my EP modules, but they're just computers, and my rep fixes them for me, and he always has one I can borrow if I need it, and he's charged me all of $240 grand total over the years to repair them.

So, in the last 40 'actual' years and 275 'machine' years, I've had exactly 3 days of machine down-time due to the power supplies. I've had 2 warrantee issues ever; a bad Y stepper belt on the LS900, and the Concept 2000 (back in 1981) needed an upgraded XYM board setup. Occasionally I have 'little' failures, usually a broken belt or a limit switch goes bad, but I have spares, they change out quick. I've spent: $1100 for an overnighted PS for the LS900, $240 in EP mod repairs, and maybe $8000 on assorted motors, bearings, lead screws and other maintenance items--in 40 years! Aside from a motor or idler bearing or two, no other mechanical related failures of any kind. Whenever I've needed to borrow a PS or EP mod, my rep brings one to me usually within a couple of hours. I don't know what I'd do without him...

And to address lasers and basic maintenance, re: my 12 year old LS900... My rep replaced the mirror over my lens (at no cost) a year or so ago, about 5 years ago the mirror on the LED shutter mirror came off, and I superglued it back on, and last year I had to re-seat the Y stepper's belt cog. That's about it. It's still on the original lens, other mirrors, steppers, belts and tube. I've never touched the guide rails or their bearings. I've never adjusted a belt. Only lube I've ever done is a little grease on the table's lead screws.
(Now, before I forget: to all of the above, knock on my head)

The only other things ever built that I can think of as reliable as and upkeep-easy as my NH machines: the old Bell rotary telephones.

It's sad that Gravograph has such a bad CS reputation. If they would just set their sights on getting their customer service to work as well as their machines, they could corner all the engraving markets...

That all said, if it's still between a ULS and an Epi, my nod goes to ULS...

[Nicolas Silva]

All I can offer is this:
For that reason, my nod goes to the ULS.

Ditto on the nod. Mine is a 2001 model M-class. It is used at least 7-9 hours daily 6 days a week. Still going.
the thing to look at in this forum is how many topics start off with "I have an XYZ laser and it has this problem....". The one thing you'll notice is that you rarely see XYZ substituted with ULS.