Wood stain on spheres has a unstainable band around circumference.

[Rob Werden]

I've got this problem that is making me pull my hair out. I have to stain and clearcoat these 2.5" wood spheres and no matter what I do, each one comes out with a thin band of unstainable wood.
The balls on the right were sanded, stained and poly'd
The balls on the left were sanded then coated with Minwax 13407 then stained. Nothing seems to remove this band around the ball.
Any suggestions?
balls.jpg

[Prashun Patel]

What is your sanding regimen? Too high can cause burnishing and affect stain penetration.

I have the same issue. I always thought it had to do with grain direction affecting porosity.

Have you tried switching to an aniline dye? Alcohol soluble dyes, when sprayed on, do a better job of covering evenly. In fact, you can even tint shellac with them, which makes a toner that can allow remarkable control and evenness of color.

[Rob Werden]

I start with 80 to remove the saw off marks, then 220 then 600. I never tried a dye, just off the shelf minwax stain. I have resin tints from Smooth-on called so strong, so maybe I can use those. The location of the streak is consistent on all balls. It is the same orientation to the saw off mark (parallel) Leads me to think it has something to do with the turning process.

What is your sanding regimen? Too high can cause burnishing and affect stain penetration.

I have the same issue. I always thought it had to do with grain direction affecting porosity.

Have you tried switching to an aniline dye? Alcohol soluble dyes, when sprayed on, do a better job of covering evenly. In fact, you can even tint shellac with them, which makes a toner that can allow remarkable control and evenness of color.

[Mel Fulks]

What you have there is an unequal equator. I'm sure Prashun is right about aniline dye as a global solution

[Rob Werden]

Can you recommend a product that will give me the deep red I need? Are these wipe on or spray on?

[Prashun Patel]

You can use Transtint red dye. It's a concentrate that can be mixed in water or ethanol (or shellac). Looks like you do this regularly, so an easy method - if it works - would be best, I think: Dilute your transtint in water and then soak your balls in the solution.

Also, don't sand to 600. You're challenging stain and dye from penetrating by doing that. Stop at 150. Yes 150. Dye, dry, smooth lightly with 150 again to smooth the grain, then go to poly.


FWIW, Transtint and other dye concentrates or powders typically do not contain binders like your stain does. The stain colors AND seals the wood, which makes it harder for penetration of any subsequent coats. Dyes don't have this limitation, so you can keep applying to achieve a final color.

The most reliable way to a deep, constant color, IMHO, is to spray it in alcohol, but you can try this after you determine that soaking does not work. If you do not own or wish to invest in HVLP, then you can consider getting an air brush system like the Panache. For small parts, it's actually preferable, because you can do things like sun bursts and shadows to make your Schwetty Balls really stand out.

[Rob Werden]

Ok, I just ordered both colors I need. Thanks for the advice.

[Rob Werden]

Out of curiousity, what could be the actual cause of every single ball having the exact same problem?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Out of curiousity, what could be the actual cause of every single ball having the exact same problem?

The un-stain-able band is the face grain ('equator'). Everything else is the progressive transition to end-grain - with pure end-grain at the 'poles'.

I'm not particularly experienced with turning, but suspect that any wood with end-grain that finishes differently from face gain will yield same results. Very fine sanding may reduce, but not eliminate it. ...Perhaps a sanding sealer as 1st coat will give more consistent results?

Edit: Sorry, not fine sanding, but differential sanding - - very fine on the 'poles', coarse on the 'equator'.

[John TenEyck]

I think if you spray them with a toner the color will be uniform. I like Transtint in Sealcoat shellac, although sometimes I add Transtint to my WB clear topcoat. The problem with using dyes or stains comes from the variable grain you have in those spheres; it doesn't absorb uniformly. But with toner the color is mostly on the surface so variable grain is not a problem.

John

[Wayne Lomman]

Different sanding for different areas as Malcolm says. Many years polishing mahogany chairs taught me this. Any turnery and shaped parts had to be sanded differently to the straight grain. However, colour matching was still required. We always made up what was effectively a toner to bring up the last of the colour. So John is right as well. Cheers

[Rob Werden]

Well I order the transtint and mixed it with DNA then airbrushed it on the sanded wood. The band did not go away. I spoke to the manufacturer of the balls and they said the band is the face of the wood where as all the rest of the surface is technically endgrain. So they have never heard of a way to avoid the band other than painting it. Polyshades may be my only option at this point.

[Prashun Patel]

No. it is not your only option.

Make a toner with shellac, as John advises. This essentially makes a paint. A transparent paint.

You can use Transtint in Zinsser Sealcoat. You will have to play with the concentration so's do achieve decent color without having to use too much shellac. Multiple, thin coats...

[John TenEyck]

Yes, what Prashun said. Spraying the dye in DNA won't do it as it can absorb into the wood. You have to put the dye in shellac or some other film former so that it ends on the surface. Thinking about it a little more, I would spray at least one and probably two coats of straight shellac first, before applying the toner. This will help seal up the variable surface porosity so that the toner goes on evenly.

John

[John Blazy]

You guys are close, and have been getting closer with dyes and transtints, but if the tinted coat is over raw wood, you are back to same problem. The main fix is to use a fast drying clear sealer that won't soak into the end grain as fast, which by itself will darken a tad, and the longer time it has to soak in, the darker (use lacquer or shellac as sealer).
Obvious from first pic, 90% of the balls surface is end grain except the equator band which is flat grain. One sealed, then clear coat with compatible clear with the dye mixed in. Spray a tad heavier in equator with your dyed topcoat, and it is best method for evening out the color. I used to spray candys over figured grain, and most figure is end grain which darkens so much, you lose the light refraction of the figure, so you literally are filling the grain with clear, then candy coating the whole surface, which once sealed, will coat evenly.

There is no total fix due to the grain, but for heavens sake, don't add dyes or tints in the first sealer coat - it will make it worse. The goal is to prevent stains and dyes from soaking into the end grain, which amplifies the darkening, hence seal with clear first.