New Tablesaw Advice

[Shanti Betts]

I'm looking to purchase a new (to me) tablesaw for my garage workshop, and I'd like some feedback.

My budget is about $2k, but ideally I'd also like to buy dust collection with a portion of that.

I work mostly with soft woods (pine, poplar). I have started working more with hardwoods, but I don't anticipate needing to rip thick hardwood stock in the near future.

I'm mostly concerned with accuracy. I'm building my own cabinets, and I'm tired of fighting all of the slop in my dewalt contractor saw.

My electrical panel is in the shop, but the only 220 circuit in the shop is used by the dryer.

I have been looking in my area (Seattle) for old Unisaws, but it's been a few months, and I haven't found any deals. Reading some of the older threads, I have seen the Steel City saws recommended several times. My other thought is SawStop (I like my fingers), but they are quite a bit more expensive, and I'm not convinced they are a superior saw for the money. Generally, I am a cautious person, and I'm not super worried about having a non-SawStop table saw.

So, my questions are:

Is it worth it to install a 220 circuit to get a 3 HP saw, or will a 1.75 HP saw be adequate? I think I read somewhere that 1.75 HP is good for up to 2" of hardwood?

What are people's opinions on the Steel City vs SawStop saws? Is there another brand / model that I should consider? Should I upgrade to the "professional" fence system?

Should I order through my local Woodcraft? Amazon?

[Frank Pratt]

For what you do, you should be happy with 1.75 HP. Steel City & SawStop are not even in the same league. SawStop is a very good machine, even without the safety feature.

Steel City shut down a while ago, although their website is still active, sort of. In Canada they aren't available anymore, but there is a company providing tech support.

Putting in a 240V circuit will be easy with a panel being in your shop.

[Matt Day]

Grizzly makes some great price point table saws.

[Terry Therneau]

Just for kicks I pulled up the Seattle craigslist. There were a couple of newer Unisaws, but two others you might consider.
1. A Wadkin Bursgreen (British) This is 2x the saw that a Uni would be (and 2x the weight). Run it off an FM-50-203C ($200 from Factorymation). Several people on the owwm list run 5HP tablesaws with a 3HP VFD; it works fine for home use. (You are not going to be pushing 8-4 oak though it with a powerfeeder, which this saw could do. ) You will need to run the VFD off a 220 circuit, but you could share the one with the dryer as long as you don't try to run them both at the same time.

2. An General International (Canadian). They have a good reputation.

I personally run a 1 HP 1948 Unisaw and like it a lot, and very rarely bog it down doing my hobby work (furniture) with a quality blade. It's just an idea to widen your search.

Terry Therneau

[Patrick Curry]

I'd point you toward the 3hp Grizzly line for the table saws (search reviews for the 1023 line). Their customer service is exceptional and their 1 yr warranty is bullets (no questions type of replacement for parts).
To stay under budget I'd recommend getting Harbor Freight's 2hp DC and then build or buy an inexpensive cyclone.
Combined, I don't think you'll find more features for under $2k

[Shanti Betts]

Just for kicks I pulled up the Seattle craigslist. There were a couple of newer Unisaws, but two others you might consider.
1. A Wadkin Bursgreen (British) This is 2x the saw that a Uni would be (and 2x the weight). Run it off an FM-50-203C ($200 from Factorymation). Several people on the owwm list run 5HP tablesaws with a 3HP VFD; it works fine for home use. (You are not going to be pushing 8-4 oak though it with a powerfeeder, which this saw could do. ) You will need to run the VFD off a 220 circuit, but you could share the one with the dryer as long as you don't try to run them both at the same time.

2. An General International (Canadian). They have a good reputation.

I personally run a 1 HP 1948 Unisaw and like it a lot, and very rarely bog it down doing my hobby work (furniture) with a quality blade. It's just an idea to widen your search.

Terry Therneau

Thanks for the alternatives. I really like the idea of restoring old tools, but it's hard to know what to search for.

How much of a pain in the butt is the VFD going to be for me? I thought I remember reading that it takes power as long as it is on (I guess I would turn it on and off with the saw), but does it get hard-wired into the circuit, or does it plug in with a power cord?

I did some poking around, and it sounds like some people love and some hate the Wadkin Bursgreen - but do you have any idea what a fair price for a saw of that age and condition would be? Any ideas on what red flags I should be looking for if I go see the saw?

From the other suggestions on this thread, it sounds like Grizzly is a popular suggestion. It seems like the General Int. saw is fairly comparable to a Grizzly in the same price range. Any thoughts on what a used GI saw would be worth? The only reference to a new price I can find is from 2012, someone quotes that model as going for about $1600.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Powermatic makes a 110 v saw, I believe it is the PM1000. I have heard it is a good saw. If you wait until Black Friday, they usually have 10-15% off. I believe the sticker price is $1999.

[Robert Engel]

IIRC Steel City has gone out of business so I would caution you to check on that.

There will be a big diff between a 3HP and 1 3/4.

I'd be looking closely at the 2HP hybrid Grizzly or, even better, this machine which will take you anywhere you want to go in future ww'ing and is well within your budget.

It is very easy to run a 240V circuit so I wouldn't let that limit your choices.

[Terry Therneau]

Thanks for the alternatives. I really like the idea of restoring old tools, but it's hard to know what to search for.

How much of a pain in the butt is the VFD going to be for me? I thought I remember reading that it takes power as long as it is on (I guess I would turn it on and off with the saw), but does it get hard-wired into the circuit, or does it plug in with a power cord?


I did some poking around, and it sounds like some people love and some hate the Wadkin Bursgreen - but do you have any idea what a fair price for a saw of that age and condition would be? Any ideas on what red flags I should be looking for if I go see the saw?

Disclosure: I regularly read the old woodworking machines mailing list (owwm), have a mix of old and new machines, and enjoy the work of rehabing one. About 1/2 of mine have not been repainted -- I don't get carried away with it. I know that isn't for everyone so my suggestion to look more widely is only a moderate nudge. Given that:

1. The VFD has a LED display that is always on. I've never checked how much power that takes, or the (likely larger) work of keeping capacitors charged. I doubt it is very much. As a good conservationist I suppose I should throw the breaker when I'm not going to be in the shop for a few days. Wiring one up involves adding a cord to it, perhaps with a plug for your drier outlet, screw it to the wall, a 3-12 w/ ground wire to the saw (no switch or interruption on this one), and reading the manual. It's not hard. Remember that you also need an on/off switch -- I'm partial to BIG stop buttons -- and a wire from the switch to VFD, for which I use telephone or doorbell wire.

2. Sort of like the price for real estate is 90% location, the price for a used saw is mostly condition, followed by accessories (miter gauge, blade wrench, guards, ...). Expect to put in new bearings, but other than that you are looking for signs of abuse. Did someone use the top for an anvil? Handwheel broken off by the forklift going by? The owwm forum refuses to even comment on price, because it is so hard without seeing the machine in person.

[Eric Rimel]

I hesitate to say 'ALL' but most saws that aren't either broken or poorly repaired can be made to be accurate. Actually very accurate. Buying new isn't going to save you much time or effort. They still come in a box and have to be put together and adjusted to be accurate. A used saw is typically a project, some small, some large, some a lifetime of frustration. Buying used is a roll of the dice, but generally, as long as nothing is broken there's few items to replace (bearings, belts, motor, switch). Arbor flange runout is a worst case scenario that can be corrected by either buying a new one or having a machinist throw it between centers and re-face it. It can also be checked before purchase and avoided.

25 years ago (doesn't seem that long ago....) I bought a new Grizzly G1023 for I think $625. Put it together, bought an aftermarket fence, built side and outfeed tables and abused that thing for years until I sold my share of the business and moved. Probably had $1200 in the whole thing. It's still being used today.

2 years ago I bought possibly the same vintage G1023 at auction with the words 'Junk' spray painted on the top for $425. From the photos I could tell it had a new motor in it. It also had a really nice remote magnetic switch. I wasn't able to view it in person, I just put my max bid up and let it ride. I won the auction. I bought bearings for it but it didn't really need them. I adjusted it, bought an aftermarket fence, built side and outfeed tables and am currently abusing it. I have $1,000 in it.

I was/am happy with both saws. Extremely accurate after adjustment. Each required about the same amount of work. 25 years ago I couldn't go online and check ratings, just a magazine article here and there. Today analysis paralisis can set in with all the info available.

I wouldn't buy a new tablesaw today unless it was a Sawstop, computerized panel saw or job site saw.

[Prashun Patel]

If budget is a hard stop for you, then get a Grizzly hybrid ts and a dust collector. The hybrid ts's will work on 110v and will have plenty of power for your cabinets and as long as you're not routinely ripping 3" maple, will be fine for most things.

How hooked are you on this craft?

With respect, most people start off working in thinner, softer woods, and don't anticipate working with bigger, thicker, harder wood. It's a slippery slope though. If a) you anticipate wanting to do more, and b) the budget limitation isn't hardnfast, then upgrade to 220v and buy a cabinet saw.

[Jim Dwight]

I use a Ryboi BT3100 TS and have for over 10 years. It has a 15A Universal motor and drives the arbor by a pair of really short poly belts. I used to use a home made table saw with a true 1hp (15A) synchronous motor. The apparent power is similar but the universal motor is less efficient so the Ryobi is a little less powerful. I have ripped 3.5 inches deep (full depth) in hardwood several times, I do it whenever I need to. I can't do it with the universal blade I usually have on the saw (usually a Freud 50 tooth with 40 ATB teeth and 10 flat top ripping teeth). I have to switch to a dedicated ripping blade, for me a Freud 24 tooth. I do not typically use thin kerf blades although I have some. I do not see where they reduce power requirements. I think what happens is the gain from the thinner kerf is offset by the loss of rigidity in the blade and associated tiny movement of the thin kerf blade. Or maybe I am just not that perceptive. But I am very confident that using the right blade for the application makes a lot more difference than thin versus thick kerf.

I said all that to say that you can make all the cuts a 10 inch saw is capable of with a 110V saw. I don't think you gain much with a higher hp saw other than the ability to use dull, dirty blades or combination blades for deep rips, perhaps. I'm no expert on saws with 3hp or bigger motors, however. My only use was in workshop a very long time ago. But I am confident that a 110V saws will do everything necessary as long as we use an appropriate blade. I know they will do it because I have done it many times.

[Roy Turbett]

Thanks for the alternatives. I really like the idea of restoring old tools, but it's hard to know what to search for.

How much of a pain in the butt is the VFD going to be for me? I thought I remember reading that it takes power as long as it is on (I guess I would turn it on and off with the saw), but does it get hard-wired into the circuit, or does it plug in with a power cord?

Adding a 220 circuit and VFD is fairly straightforward. You can put a switch before the VFD to power it on and off. This is what I did on my lathe. However, you don't want to put a switch between the VFD and motor. The remote switch to turn the saw on and off is connected to the VFD which is connected to the motor.

[scott spencer]

A 1.75hp that's well setup and fitted with a good blade will indeed suffice, but it's hard to imagine that you'd ever regret taking the jump to a 3hp industrial cabinet saw. It's a pretty significant difference. Not only is there nearly twice the power, but the handwheels are larger and work smoother, there's a lot more mass for better stability and lower vibration, the industrial cabinet saws usually come with better fences, and the under pinnings are much more robust. The additional power gives you control over the feed rate vs having the saw dictate that to you, and it'll be a lot less sensitive of blade selection, etc.

A saw like the Grizzly G1023RL is < $1500 to your door, and still leaves some budget for a dust collector. Good used 3hp cabinet saws can be less.