Grizzly machines now made in China

[Chris Fournier]

The OP's question is a tough one. Can a hobbyest buy Grizzly and believe that he has a forever machine that is top notch? I think that a lot do and as long as they feel this way then they are doing alright.

I started with a Taiwanese jointer and planer well over 20 years ago, I also bought a Delta 14" bandsaw at the time. It was clear to me that the Delta was a better built and finished machine. The jointer and planer were crude but did a lot of work for me. The planer drive was down right crappy and required machine shop solutions to make it better, a weld let go on the machine as well.

I bought a General table saw next and this was an eye opener. The 350 was my introduction to good equipment. I never bought Taiwanese or Chinese woodworking equipment again.

I up graded my jointer and planer with a Minimax FS 30 and this was my introduction to great equipment. Europeans currently build the finest woodworking equipment.

I would suggest to the OP to look at Grizzly, Hammer, Minimax and good used equipment as well as the new stuff. See the difference for yourself, ask yourself what you need to do the work that you want to do, determine your budget and then buy accordingly.

Sounds like you are about to have a really good time in your shop!

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I have many thousands in Cantek machinery in my shop. All made in Taiwan. My 20" planer, 16" long bed jointer, 37" wide belt sander, manual dovetail machine, 7.5HP tilting shaper, two power feeders, edge bander (about $70,000 worth in today's Canadian dollars) all serve me and my business very well for going on 6 years now since I set up a new shop.

I was looking at a similar European planer for instance... $10K for the Cantek, or $15 to $18 for the comparable (in terms of options, HP and head). Similarly for the remainder of the machinery.

When you are working equipment daily, what matters is that it is reliable - does what you need it to do and do well. Ive put 30 or 40 thousand board feet of hardwood through my planer (conservatively) and would a European made machine serve me better? I cannot see why it would. I had a nice Italian made jointer and planer in my last shop, sure it was fine too. But I wouldnt say it was better.

We had (in both our last two shops) predominantly European made, and some American made machinery - so I think I can compare things pretty well, after working for 20+ years with the old stuff. I was a bit "apprehensive" at first when looking at the Taiwanese made stuff, but after speaking to some other owners I felt pretty good about it. And now, I have zero regrets.

I would say I don't care where things are made, but it sure is hard to not have some bias based on the world we live in and people's perceptions and comments. I still "care" to a point, but try and keep an open mind and base judgements on facts and not general attitudes.

If I felt something was decent enough quality, and it was made in China - so what? But again, I'd do some research with others who have first hand experience. To get actual facts and not internet facts, lol.

[David Kumm]

Cantek makes some nice stuff. Stiles sells it as part of their Artisan line. I think the price difference is less now with the dollar so strong against the Euro. Dave

[Walter Plummer]

I have been catching up on this thread. I think some confusion comes in from the misconception that Quality Control means making the best product possible. In fact QC is just checking to make sure you are not out of tolerance to the level of quality intended. It can be +/- 0.003" for something high end or +/- 0.300" for "economy grade". As long as it falls between those numbers it passes. All this was decided before production began to make a unit cost to produce.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I have been catching up on this thread. I think some confusion comes in from the misconception that Quality Control means making the best product possible. In fact QC is just checking to make sure you are not out of tolerance to the level of quality intended. It can be +/- 0.003" for something high end or +/- 0.300" for "economy grade". As long as it falls between those numbers it passes. All this was decided before production began to make a unit cost to produce.

And that is the same conditions used in the ISO 9000 and ISO 9001 certifications. Does a manufactured product meet the standards set during the design process? If it meets the design standards, that is all that matters.

As stated....products can be manufactured to both high and low standards which usually means higher and lower prices and both meet ISO standards.

[Daniel Berlin]

Grizzly machines are knock-offs, (copies), of machines originally designed in other countries.....so they can't have "intellectual property" on something they "borrowed" and was not theirs to begin with

This is a pretty strong assumption.
In fact, i'd assume it was the opposite.
Geetech or someone is producing the main plans, and each manufacturer is tweaking them.

That's how ODM'ing normally works.

[Jeff Duncan]

This is a pretty strong assumption.
In fact, i'd assume it was the opposite.
Geetech or someone is producing the main plans, and each manufacturer is tweaking them.

That's how ODM'ing normally works.

Grizzly didn't exist when much of the traditional woodworking machinery guys use today was designed, (and it wasn't just them, we're talking about most of todays manufacturers of small shop equipment)....they were just the topic at hand. If you look at a most traditional machines, table saw, jointers, planers, shapers, sanders etc. etc... the basic designs are old. Most well over 50 years old, some closer to a century. Most of the companies that originally designed the machines are not around today. Hence all the traditional machinery we use manufactured today is copied from someone else. So to me it's pretty hard to claim any of those designs as one's own. I guess you could consider something like moving to power switch from the body of a jointer to a raised arm as an original idea, and hence intellectual property. But to me it's closer to adding some custom wheels to your truck, or upgrading the suspension, or any number of similar minute changes to the stock product..... at the end of the day it's still an Ford F-150 and you can't take ownership of that

I'm not a lawyer though and so maybe you can take a well established machine design and make a couple small changes and call it your own design and "intellectual property"? I also acknowledge that they may have other equipment not necessarily fitting the traditional mold, that are their own designs. But that's probably getting too technical a point, I think I was merely expressing what I believe the posters who found it ironic may have been thinking.....as it's what I was thinking as well

JeffD

[rudy de haas]

Grizzly machines are knock-offs, (copies), of machines originally designed in other countries.....so they can't have "intellectual property" on something they "borrowed" and was not theirs to begin with

As for the switch from Taiwan to China.....no real difference, Taiwan is part of China, (though they certainly don't like it).


JeffD

No - Taiwan is most certainly not part of China. The communists claim the Island, but the Islanders don't want anything to do with them and spend a good chunk of the national income preparing to defend themselves from an oft-promised communist invasion.

[Peter Kelly]

I love to know the story with $8,000 "Made in Germany" slider they sell...

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-6...campaign=zPage

[brian zawatsky]

Erik, comparing Kentwood machinery to Grizzly machinery is like comparing a Bentley to a Daewoo lol

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Few subjects bring about as much argument as this one.

I had a friend who died 20 years ago from ALS. He was a machinist by trade, well respected even internationally. He worked for one of the major bullet manufacturers. He helped set up their factory in Mexico and trained their local people. Leaving the company, he established his own machining company in Alaska for a nearly 2 decades. When he got to where the weather bothered him and his spouse, he moved back to Lewiston. He was a certified aircraft mechanic, an accomplished tournament shooter in both rifle benchrest and pistol. He was a very accomplished gunsmith building everything from hunting rifles to benchrest competition rifles.

When he moved back to Lewiston, retired, he decided he didn't want to tie up as much money in major tools for gunsmithing, so he bought some higher end Taiwan manufactured lathe and other tools. How good were those tools? Just one or two years before ALS forced his complete retirement, two of the rifles he built made it through the qualification rounds and shot at the National rifle benchrest competitions.

He told me more than once, he was surprised at the quality of the tools and how well they worked. These weren't the low end, basement bargain tools.

That being said, most of us at this site are probably amateurs like me. While I bought an MM-16, an Oneida SDG DC and a PM3520B lathe, if I had to buy the higher end tools, I couldn't justify woodworking as a hobby. Yet, my Grizzly G0490X works great. In fact, Friday evening I cleaned, waxed the tables on it and my table saw. Yesterday they both performed well.

The old saying still holds true....you get what you pay for.......JMO

[jack duren]

I'm looking into purchasing a new jointer and planer for my shop and would like to go with the Grizzly machines, but now both machines I'm looking at are made in China, where they used to be made in Taiwan. Also, on the specifications sheet they are not produced in an ISO factory. Should I still consider Grizzly? I want to buy once and own nice machines to last a long time and not have the need to upgrade. Considering the G0490XW jointer and the G0453ZW, 8" jointer and 15" planer both with spiral cutterheads. Why is Grizzly now manufacturing in China? Are they starting to take more advantage of profits over quality? The customer service person I talked to says they are trying to meet the high demands for these machines.

If it had Old American quality would you pay double for it?

[Andrew J. Coholic]

You do get what you pay for. But, I think the theme of this "argument" is that just because it is made in China or Taiwan, it can't be automatically be considered garbage.

No matter where something is made, you still need to be aware of how it is made, and judge the quality based on first hand experience of others, your own inspection and similar.

Ive bought some tools made in Europe that were complete garbage as well. A few hand tools made in Germany come to mind. I never assume something is top end just because of where it was made.

[Martin Wasner]

Cantek makes some nice stuff. Stiles sells it as part of their Artisan line. I think the price difference is less now with the dollar so strong against the Euro. Dave

I've got a Cantek automatic dovetailer. It's okay. It took a lot of time to set it up, but the quality seems decent enough.

After I get a rip saw, (which a new Cantek is in the running), I need to upgrade my planer. I've been eyeing a Cantek for that as well,, but it's currently 4th on the lust list. A new invincible is #1, I don't think I need it, nor can I likely justify the cost. I'll likely end up with either an SCM or a Casadei. I'm pretty neutral on those two choices.

The Cantek stuff seems decent, I'm just concerned with longevity. I've bought a lot of yellow and green tools over the years, I wouldn't say any of it was money well spent, just what I could afford at the time.

[Cary Falk]

If it had Old American quality would you pay double for it?

Not if I gain only a little bit in quality. Not everything old American is good. If you think a 1950's Uni oozes old American quality, then that would make it's worth about $2800 considering a G1023 or G0690 is about $1400. I have not seen anybody on this forum say that they would even give $1400 for a Uni let alone $2800.