Planed Finish VS Sandpaper - Microscopic View

[Stewie Simpson]

Excellent post Stew.

[Stanley Covington]

Its a subject I am familiar with;

To burnish is defined as the act of making a material's surface shiny or lustrous by rubbing it. Most commonly applied to metal surfaces. Never heard of rubbing two pieces of wood together to make a shiny surface. I have often used a stiff brush to remove/recess soft summer wood leaving harder winter wood proud of the surface. This polishes the wood producing a shiny surface. How would you rub two pieces of wood together to finish kitchen cabinets or wood floors?

The surface we are seeing in the video is obviously not a "burnished" surface, it is a planed surface. Equally obvious is the fact that the miyadaiku planing the wood is not, at least at the stage shown in the video, trying to produce a "burnished surface." He intends to produce a planed surface.

So help me understand your point, Stew.

Are you suggesting that with each pass of his plane he was "rubbing" and/or "burnishing" the wood? With a single pass?

Or is your point that a shiny surface on wood can only be achieved by "rubbing" it with a wooden plane, and that a metal plane can't achieve an equally shiny or lustrous surface appearance? Really?

Or, is your point that, since its a subject you are familiar with, that you are unable to create a shiny or lustrous surface with your metal-bodied plane?

I think that most well-traveled people with both eyes and hands-on experience in both traditions recognize that the Japanese woodworking tradition in general is different, but not superior to Western traditions. A steel-bodied plane can, at least in my hands, and I am absolutely certain in the hands of many belonging to this forum, plane a nice piece of wood just as shiny and lustrous as a wooden-bodied plane finishing of any type in the hands of an expert can. Obviously. But your experience seems to be different. So share with us your experience on the subject of the inadequacy of steel-bodied planes for "burnishing" wood.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Douglas-Fir. Commonly referred to as Oregon pine is Australia. http://www.wood-database.com/douglas-fir/

I thought I recognized that timber! I've been using some of it to make a sawing bench, it planes beautifully and I love the smell it gives off. Unfortunately the stuff my local yard sells is pretty poor grade and every piece has heart running through it, so every piece has twist and cupping.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stanley; when I refer to the final pass, its the last plane used to prepare the timber surface.

Stewie;

[Marty Schlosser]

A few years back at a finishing symposium our association held, I wanted to encourage everyone to hand-plane their work and use sandpaper only when needed to knock off any problem areas such as have been mentioned by previous posters to this thread. The idea was that this could possibly save time. To prove my point, I ripped a 10" wide piece of american cherry in half. I gave one piece to Jacques Breau to hand plane and sanded the other half using my ROS. Whereas Jacques took about 1 minute to plane one face of his piece, I ended out having to go all the way down through successive grits to P2000 to achieve the same smooth surface. That took me about 15 minutes to accomplish.

The finish I usually apply (Target Coatings waterborne - alkyd varnish) call for sanding to between P220 and P400 in preparation for finishing (here's the link to their website: https://www.targetcoatings.com/wp-co..._EM2000_R3.pdf) Hence, I don't see much need for sanding beyond that level, which is therefore quite quick to accomplish.

[Pat Barry]

Stan, in the video, do they state what the sanded finish represents with respect to grit? Also, do they indicate if it was sanded with the grain or with a random orbit sander? Thanks

[Wayne Lomman]

Interesting video but what is the point? Is the implication that planing is superior to sanding? To adhere to one or the other is closing one's eyes to half the world.

More to the point, what seems to be missed so far with finishing is the fact that planing, sanding, burnishing (and yes, you can burnish timber), sanding technique and whether to sand at all etc etc is part of the finishing process. A good polisher uses surface texture techniques to create the final effect. It is often necessary to use many variations in texture on a single piece of timber.

I'm not going to waste time telling you all the scientific reasons why colour, texture and finishes work the way they do. It doesn't matter why if you understand how. I have the rest of my life to ponder why. Cheers

[Brian Holcombe]

Interesting video but what is the point? Is the implication that planing is superior to sanding? To adhere to one or the other is closing one's eyes to half the world.

More to the point, what seems to be missed so far with finishing is the fact that planing, sanding, burnishing (and yes, you can burnish timber), sanding technique and whether to sand at all etc etc is part of the finishing process. A good polisher uses surface texture techniques to create the final effect. It is often necessary to use many variations in texture on a single piece of timber.

I'm not going to waste time telling you all the scientific reasons why colour, texture and finishes work the way they do. It doesn't matter why if you understand how. I have the rest of my life to ponder why. Cheers

I think what they're doing is showing the difference between the two. Those surfaces do respond that way when finished in those two different approaches, so if you want the finish to take on water quickly then sanding would be a better approach in that instance.

I build furniture and now starting to build shoji....I want my work to be repellant of water, so I prefer planing.

[Stewie Simpson]

God damn Wayne; your talking my language. Good to see there's still some old school common sense on this forum. Its the 1st time I have ever heard of a Finishing Symposium. Is that a byo, or is the beer supplied.

Stewie;

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, in the video, do they state what the sanded finish represents with respect to grit? Also, do they indicate if it was sanded with the grain or with a random orbit sander? Thanks

Pat:

No mention at all of how the wood was sanded. It is a disappointing video. I think it is part of a TV program intended to impress people who have never held a plane or sanded a board.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I think what they're doing is showing the difference between the two. Those surfaces do respond that way when finished in those two different approaches, so if you want the finish to take on water quickly then sanding would be a better approach in that instance.

I build furniture and now starting to build shoji....I want my work to be repellant of water, so I prefer planing.

Brian:

Wise choice. Sanded shoji would be disgusting.

Stan

[Wayne Lomman]

God damn Wayne; your talking my language. Good to see there's still some old school common sense on this forum. Its the 1st time I have ever heard of a Finishing Symposium. Is that a byo, or is the beer supplied.

Stewie;

Lets hope for beer supplied!
Cheers

[Stewie Simpson]

The penny just dropped Wayne, I just noticed your location. Excellent territory with quality craftsmen and fantastic local timber.

regards Stewie;

[Wayne Lomman]

Moved here 12 years ago and for the first time in our lives we don't want to move anywhere else. Have to spend too much time working in Adelaide though... Cheers

[Stanley Covington]

Interesting video but what is the point? Is the implication that planing is superior to sanding? To adhere to one or the other is closing one's eyes to half the world.

More to the point, what seems to be missed so far with finishing is the fact that planing, sanding, burnishing (and yes, you can burnish timber), sanding technique and whether to sand at all etc etc is part of the finishing process. A good polisher uses surface texture techniques to create the final effect. It is often necessary to use many variations in texture on a single piece of timber.

I'm not going to waste time telling you all the scientific reasons why colour, texture and finishes work the way they do. It doesn't matter why if you understand how. I have the rest of my life to ponder why. Cheers

The implication in the video, which is the starting off point for this thread, is that a planed surface allows less water to soak into it. No mention was made in the video of finishes, burnishing, texture techniques or variations thereof.

In my opinion, as someone that understand the language, its an interesting video as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. No point in expecting it to address finishes when it it is simply talking about a very narrow point: planing vs sanding.

Stan