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Thread: Local Circuit-Breakers for Sump Pit?

  1. #1

    Local Circuit-Breakers for Sump Pit?

    A few years ago I had a french drain put it the basement. The contractor who did the work did pretty much EVERYTHING wrong (A list would make you ROTFL, though it makes me sick)

    One "small" problem is he didn't even plug in the 2 pumps, nor did he have electrical run to them, nor did he tell us that WE had to. By code, the two pumps have to have a dedicated breaker, though it can be a single 20a circuit. However, I want to have each pump on its own 15a breaker, because if the main pump were to burn out, it could trip its breaker, leaving no power of pump #2. Pump#2 has a battery backup, but those can fail, whereas my whole-house generator would likely not fail. So, 2 breakers = a lot more peace of mind.

    MY QUESTION: I have to run over 100' of Romex, and so I'd rather not have two separate runs of wire. Is it possible to do something like this: Use 12g Romex with a 20a breaker in the service box, but then have 2 local 15a breakers & sockets, for the two pumps?

    If so, what do i use? I haven't been able to find any 2-slot sub panels.

    Would you do it some other way entirely?
    --------------------

    QUESTION #2: I'm not planning to use GFI's, even though technically the code calls for this. (Rockland County, NY ) If they go bad, you flood, so... I did more research than I ever want to do again, and this is a HUGE grey area. There seems to be a "dedicated use" condition that may apply here. I'll have only 1 socket per breaker, and will enclose the whole thing in a box, so....

    Am I rolling the dice?


    THX.

  2. #2
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    I like the general idea, but I'd probably feed this small sub-panel with 30 amp and #10 simply because I'd prefer the extra headroom. As to the GFCI...you might appreciate them if you're standing in water and something goes awry. The outlet in our basement for the sump pump (and septic alarm) is a GFCI and was installed by a licensed electrician when the house's service was upgraded a number of years ago.
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  3. #3
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    Allan

    If I am understanding this correctly, these pumps have not been powered for a few years with no negative effect? If so I would just put them on the circuit and GFCI protect them.
    Running another 100' of romex will be cheaper than putting in a sub-panel if you really want them on separate circuits. If you haven't needed these pumps to work in a few years, I think you could chance it. That's me though.
    If you're going to put in a subpanel anyway, that is a 100' from the main panel, I'd tend to go bigger for the service, because you never know what may pop up a few years down the line. You don't have to use all of the slots.
    The battery backup for the second pump sounds a little strange, but without seeing it electrically, it seems like it is offering protection of it's own.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  4. #4
    Thanks guys.

    Clarification:

    The main pump runs all the time. The backup pump is fairly cheap, so I don't trust its battery system. It will of course run on AC, and from my generator if the power goes out.

    It's a good point about the cost, but my bigger concern is that I only have 2 single slots left in the service entrance box. I'd rather not use them both for this.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    As to the GFCI...you might appreciate them if you're standing in water and something goes awry.
    I've been reading that a lot of licensed electricians simply refuse to obey this stupid law. Stupid, because you won't be standing in water unless the pump dies, in which case the problem wasn't a lack of grounding, plus you'd then flip the breaker off the look things over, anyway.... And stupid, because GFCI's go bad all the time. If the one on you pump does, then you flood. That's why some states / towns (not mine, unfortunately) have the "single use" exception: With only one pump, on one dedicated outlet, the GFCI requirement is waved. Sadly, it seems that the guys who write the codes are literally the same guys that manufacture GFCI's. (You can't make this stuff up.) So ........

  6. #6
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    I won't tell you to not use a GFCI if that is indeed code but if you don't why not locate the sub-panel adjacent to the main load center if it is in a "dry" area? There aren't a lot of 4 space load centers around that are inexpensive. Why not use a larger sub-panel, they can be had cheap at the big box stores. If it were me I would put in a sub-panel near the main load center then run properly sized circuits to the pumps.
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

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  7. #7
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    Doing what you propose is no better than having them both plugged into the same outlet on the same circuit. The time/current curves for 15 and 20 amp circuit breakers are almost identical so if you had an instantaneous fault that tripped one of your proposed 15 amp breakers it will most probably trip the 20 amp breaker that you want to put behind it. the only thing the 15 amp breaker would possibly be preventing is a time overcurrent condition (motor overload) and even then it would be a race to see which breaker actually operated first. If it were me, and I was worried enough to have two sump pumps I wouldn't cheap out over 100' of romex. The goal should be to eliminate any and all situations possible where a single point of failure will cause an unwanted situation; your proposed solution does not accomplish this goal.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by John Lanciani View Post
    Doing what you propose is no better than having them both plugged into the same outlet on the same circuit. The time/current curves for 15 and 20 amp circuit breakers are almost identical so if you had an instantaneous fault that tripped one of your proposed 15 amp breakers it will most probably trip the 20 amp breaker that you want to put behind it. .......

    That's good to know, thanks. I guess I'll do 2 full runs of #14, after all.

    Also, I just discovered a self-testing GFCI that flashes if it detects a fault. (Pass & Seymour, though there may also be others) I think maybe that would be OK, since I walk past that pump pit almost every day.


    Thanks, all.

  9. #9
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    I put GFCIs with audible alarms on mine. If the GFCI trips it gives a loud alert.

    https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-A7899...rds=gfci+alarm

    Note that if the breaker supplying the circuit trips, the GFCI won't alarm (as it has no power), but you can get power fail alarms for that case.

  10. #10
    Why not run one 12/3 Romex and install a tandem in the main panel?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Schmid View Post
    Why not run one 12/3 Romex and install a tandem in the main panel?
    Great idea!

    - Is it legal?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Speers View Post
    Great idea!

    - Is it legal?
    Simply a multi-wire branch circuit with a shared neutral, quite common in modern kitchen wiring for example.

    That said a pair of 12/2 or 14/2 wires is sometimes cheaper for the wire alone than one 12/3 or 14/3 but in old work it may be more trouble to run two wires. Note in a properly run multi-wire branch circuit the ampacity avaiable at the outlets is equal to that of running 2 equal gauge 2 conductor wires, so a 12/3 multi-wire branch circuit gives you two 20 amp outlets the key being each hot has to be from a different leg of the service (ensured if you use a tandem breaker), if you use the same hot leg (so both outlets are in the same phase) you can overload the neutral.
    Last edited by Van Huskey; 10-26-2016 at 3:39 AM.
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Schmid View Post
    Why not run one 12/3 Romex and install a tandem in the main panel?
    The problem is that you still have one breaker protecting both pumps since to be code compliant a common trip two pole breaker must be used to protect a multi wire branch circuit. If reliability is the goal the pumps need to be wired completely separate from each other. The cost to do this job right is much less than the cost of the insurance deductible if the pumps fail to run when needed.

  14. #14
    Good point! I had forgotten that double pole detail for single phase. My shop is 3ph and it's been a few years since doing multi wire on single phase.

    Sorry Alan. Didn't mean to get your hopes up. Just seemed like a simple solution until John gently knocked some sense into me You should still be able to wire both circuits to a tandem to save panel space.

    Unless your contract specifically excludes the responsibility of the installer to bring power to the pumps, it seems like the contractor would have some responsibility here. Even if you don't want them working on your house, they may still be willing to provide some assistance toward getting this job done. To me it sounds like an electrician installing a new light without bringing power to the fixture. What's the point?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Schmid View Post

    Unless your contract specifically excludes the responsibility of the installer to bring power to the pumps, it seems like the contractor would have some responsibility here. Even if you don't want them working on your house, they may still be willing to provide some assistance toward getting this job done. To me it sounds like an electrician installing a new light without bringing power to the fixture. What's the point?

    Don't even get me started on that contractor!

    If I made a list of their mistakes, lies, code violations, and incorrect "fixes" you would literally bang your head against a wall, then laugh for days.

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