Newbie Laser Engraving Question

[Kyle Zack]

We're interested in expanding our business into etching and engraving. We've been offering custom powder coated Stainless tumblers (Yeti's) and the current process of hand masking vinyl to reveal stainless under the powder is inefficient and not suitable for large scale work. We're interested in acquiring a laser to both mark stainless and etch powder coat to reveal the stainless underneath.

I contacted Boss Lasers as they are 1.5 hours from me. They quoted me $5100 for a 60w with rotary and chiller but their lead time is 8-10 weeks which means we would miss the Christmas sales rush. I also contacted Rabbit but that's 9K.

I've spent hours on this forum and my newbie mind decided a galvo Raycus fiber laser would suit our needs. However after consulting with Gary Hair from this forum he suggested that wouldn't be the best method for our application. A fast CO2 like a Trotec would be be better to produce a dark black mark on stainless. My issue is committing to leasing a 30-40K piece of equipment with zero laser knowledge make me apprehensive.

Are there any companies that offer 6 month short term rentals of a CO2 laser while we get our proverbial feet wet ?

I appreciate the insight from the pro's.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Like any business decision, do the math. Take the profit you make per mug, divide it by 2. Take that number, and divide it by the cost of the machine. You'll find out how many mugs you need to sell to break even. If the number seems reasonable, then it's a good investment. If it doesn't, then you either need to buy a less expensive machine, see if you can outsource to a local engraver, or move on.

As for learning the machine, have your sales rep setup the template and settings so the machine will run as long as your artwork is good. Then run the machine until you get through the holiday season. After that, call them back and learn the rest of the machine.

[Gary Hair]

Take the profit you make per mug, divide it by 2.

The rest of your post makes perfect sense, and is sound business advice, but what is your point here Ross? Why divide by 2?

[Ross Moshinsky]

The rest of your post makes perfect sense, and is sound business advice, but what is your point here Ross? Why divide by 2?

The general idea is that if your profit on an item is $10, you shouldn't spend all of that on the machine because that means you aren't using that time to pay something (labor, utilities, rent, ect). So by dividing it by 2, you're saying half the profit goes to the machine and half the profit goes to the business to keep it running.

So let's assume $15k machine with a $15 profit. You could pay off the machine in as little as 1000 items but I'd say you need to sell 2000 items because you need to eat and your business needs to pay wages & bills.

[Scott Marquez]

Edit : I have no idea how this post landed on the bottom, as it was post number 5 originally.

With the Holiday season coming, I would contact Boss again and see what machines they have available for immediate shipping, maybe it will be a slight larger machine and cost a little more, but if you miss the holiday rush it doesn't matter how much you save.
With that being said, you might be better going with a Rabbit laser, knowing that some of the increased price is because of set up and training, but it will get you up and running sooner. I have zero regrets purchasing my first laser through Rabbit.
Good lucky on your decision.
Scott

[Gary Hair]

The general idea is that if your profit on an item is $10, you shouldn't spend all of that on the machine because that means you aren't using that time to pay something (labor, utilities, rent, ect). So by dividing it by 2, you're saying half the profit goes to the machine and half the profit goes to the business to keep it running.

So let's assume $15k machine with a $15 profit. You could pay off the machine in as little as 1000 items but I'd say you need to sell 2000 items because you need to eat and your business needs to pay wages & bills.

Got it.

Another way to look at it would be gross vs net profit - net profit is gross profit minus expenses (wages, etc.) I could (but wouldn't) allocate 100% of net profit toward equipment because I treat myself as an employee and run payroll and pay myself a salary.

[David Somers]

Kyle,

A rhetorical question for you. Is there a reason you are trying to do this before the holiday season? It is nearly on us after all. Most folks who plan on marketing holiday items have been working on them a while now.

Can you realistically put the idea of a holiday deadline out of your mind so you can focus on continuing your search for a machine without pressure, and once you have it you can devote some time to learning, again without the pressure? Just a thought. You may have a great reason for wanting to get this moving in time for holiday work/sales. But sometimes we get "self inflicted deadlines" in our heads that may not really make sense. But for some reason they we allow them to drive us and forget that it is a totally artificial deadline.

For what it is worth, I hear good things about Boss, and the occasional grouse. Overall good rep though. Rabbit has an excellent rep, and the advantage that they will bring the machine to you and show you how to use it and maintain it. That can be worth a lot if you are hoping to be up and running ASAP.

Either way....hoping this works out great for you.

[Kyle Zack]

Hey David,

Well we also have a pending order for 200 marked Yeti cups from a close friend. Currently we're masking by hand and it is inefficient especially for a run this large. Hopefully this order will pay for the laser haha. On another note, I spoke to Ray at Rabbit and will be buying a laser from him. The on site set-up, training and positive reviews sealed the deal. Leasing isn't an issue and it will be delivered in a couple weeks. Wish us luck.

[David Somers]

The best to you Kyle, but if you are working with Ray I think you will do just fine. Be sure to let us know how your experience goes.

One thought. Ray probably suggested this already, but you might set down and have a list of things you want to know how to do regarding the type of work you plan on doing with it, and have some graphics jobs lined up so you can work with Ray on them. Get the most out of his time as you can. Ray will also cover setup and alignment and cleaning and what parts are what and general use so you have a decent background on the machine. When he is done you should be much more comfortable doing your own troubleshooting as well as being well prepped if you need to work with him over the phone. But for your business specifically you have an opportunity to deal specifically with the jobs you hope to do with it. Have representative materials on hand too so you are working on the same materials you plan on using. Get ideas from him on the best ways to efficiently set up your jobs too. And if it is not in Ray's normal lessons, you might ask him how to test a new material to determine the best settings to use with it.

I hope this works out great for you! It is pretty exciting.

Dave

[Gary Hair]

Hey David,

Well we also have a pending order for 200 marked Yeti cups from a close friend. Currently we're masking by hand and it is inefficient especially for a run this large. Hopefully this order will pay for the laser haha. On another note, I spoke to Ray at Rabbit and will be buying a laser from him. The on site set-up, training and positive reviews sealed the deal. Leasing isn't an issue and it will be delivered in a couple weeks. Wish us luck.

Congrats on your purchase! Along with the advice from David, I'll recommend the following:
1. Read the forum from bottom to top - you'll glean some great advice and probably come up with a good list of questions for Ray.
2. Buy a few Yeti's and have them ready for your install date. Given the fact that you have such a large order pending, it would be foolish to miss the opportunity to have Ray train you on exactly what you want to do!
3. Setup an account at JDS and buy a 250g tub of Cermark. You'll use it up if you are doing as many Yeti's as it sounds like you might.
4. Get a gallon of DNA (denatured alcohol) for thinning the Cermark. You can use foam brushes or an airbrush although for 200 Yeti's I'd probably go with the brush.
5. Make sure Ray has a detailed list of what you need to have ready for your installation - I'm guessing he has that pretty well down though with all the people that recommend him.

[Scott Marquez]

Congrats on your decision, I will suggest that you have a computer and design software ready. I purchased a laptop, Corel draw, and a 2d Cad program prior to Rays arrival. Take lots of notes and pictures, he will show you how to set up your rotary device and mirror alignment to name a few.
You will want to spend some time researching a marking solution, maybe Ceramark, so you have it on hand for your set up day.
Enjoy, and give Ray my regards from Washington State.
Scott

[Kev Williams]

Wow, that was quick-- From 'what should I do?' to pulling the trigger in 5 hours and 3 minutes...

[Kyle Zack]

Time is money Full disclosure, I spoke to Ray Friday night and pretty much made my mind up. He had his wife and kids in the car and still answered around 6:30pm. That's pretty good service imho. However, I tried to get slick and order a Fiber from China directly since I've read so many reviews about them. Still want a fiber but not for this particular application

[Bert Kemp]

Kyle congrats on your new laser and you could not have made a better choice Ray will get you up and running. Like everyone else said have him train you on the yetis . Your gonna be busy but when it slows down lets us all know how it went. Good Luck and when you have questions just ask us.

[Tim Bateson]

...
3. Setup an account at JDS and buy a 250g tub of Cermark. You'll use it up if you are doing as many Yeti's as it sounds like you might.
4. Get a gallon of DNA (denatured alcohol) for thinning the Cermark. You can use foam brushes or an airbrush although for 200 Yeti's I'd probably go with the brush.
...

I would recommend LMM6038 or it's replacement LMM14 & NOT LMM-60000. It is more flexible for example portions thicker or thinner all laser the same with the same durability. Perfect for brushing. Also a much smoother marking than LMM-6000. Just finished 400 Yeti's and have another 200 headed my way.