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Thread: Ruler trick example

  1. #76
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    Brian, the ruler or the popcorn?

  2. #77
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    Jim; I believe this discussion has allowed the opportunity to put forth a case on for and against the use of the ruler trick. It has also been a civil debate compared to other sharpening discussions that have been brought up in the past. As Patrick rightly pointed out, the topic of discussion is clearly pointed out within the opening posts heading, and there has been no pressure placed upon any member to participate in this discussion if they consider the topic of no interest to them. Like every topic that finds itself on this forum, you have a number of choices available, you can ignore it and move onto another post that's serves your interest, you may have an interest in the discussion but are quite happy to not contribute other than to listen to what others have to say, or you may wish to participate within that discussion on the basis that your own experience has some important relevance.

    regards Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 11-22-2016 at 8:39 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mueller View Post
    Brian, the ruler or the popcorn?
    My ruler became a victim of my aggressive vacuuming. Recently my Sam Maloof pencil was also added to that list. If it gets vacuumed I weigh heavily its value, debating wether its merit is such that I should release it from dusty purgatory.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  4. #79
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    Hi Stewie,

    The only concern of mine is we occasionally have a new member with questions concerning their sharpening ability. Before you know it there are recommendations about secondary bevels, ruler tricks and other methods.

    I am in the KISS school, Keep It Simple Stupid. If a person has a grinder to produce a hollow grind, that is fine and helpful to the freehand sharpener. Other than that, my idea is to stay with a flat bevel and a relatively flat back. (My pictures may show my backs are not flat, but they are close enough to work.) Relatively being the choice of the user to just work 1/4" flat or 2". Once a person can get a good edge, then try some of the more sophisticated trickery of convex bevels, secondary bevels, tertiary bevels, back bevels or ruler tricks. When someone new comes along and has done all of that, where would you have them start to fix a problem if their blade still doesn't take shavings. (Yes, I realize you can not have a hollow grind and a convex bevel on the same blade without really fighting the laws of reality.)

    To me the problem rests with the typical male reality, if a little is good, then more must be better. I have received blades on auction purchase with the blade ruler tricked or back beveled for a quarter inch or more.

    I have yet to see much benefit to the ruler trick. If it is as minute as Patrick suggests, will it be enough to remove a significant wear bevel? What about the next time will the ruler trick angle have to be increased?

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #80
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    Jim; appreciate your views and I personally understand where your coming from with the KISS philosophy. I have not hidden the fact that I don't use, or personally agree with the principles of using a back bevel. But I also recognise and accept that within this forum there are those who's views are quite different.

    regards Stewie;

  6. #81
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    The warmed up Butter is ready......need any salt?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Jim; appreciate your views and I personally understand where your coming from with the KISS philosophy. I have not hidden the fact that I don't use, or personally agree with the principles of using a back bevel. But I also recognise and accept that within this forum there are those who's views are quite different.

    regards Stewie;
    As you and I have both noted, tools like chisels and low-angle shaves require a good edge with a flat (un-bevelled, un-dubbed) back, so IMO the ability to implement that is a foundational skill that everybody must develop. I object just as strenuously as you to using the bevel trick as a "shortcut" to avoid learning to do that. As with many things you have to have the fundamentals down before you can experiment with situation-specific variations.

    Beyond that I agree with your point that there's More Than One Way To Do It (tm). As I've said a couple times, the purpose of this thread wasn't to argue that anybody should change their ways, but instead to try to clear up some seeming misconceptions about what (at least some of) the folks who use the bevel trick are doing and why.

    This has indeed ended up a refreshingly civil discussion - thank you for helping to make that happen!

  8. #83
    Greetings,

    I have found this thread most interesting as it contains many of the objections routinely raised!

    My You Tube channel has a short video about how I do the ruler trick, and I hope this may be of some interest.

    I have been doing it to all blades except chisels for at least 30 years, and can see no disadvantages at all.

    Best wishes,
    David

  9. #84
    Here is even the link

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nykVPKbUGTo

    David

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Howdy Devon and welcome even though you have been hanging in the shadows for a few years.

    Not sure if I would know if any of my blades were sori afflicted. Can it happen to blades in metallic planes?

    jtk
    Thanks for the warm welcome. Like you say, I've lurked for a while, and don't have a lot of time (or possibly knowledge) to contribute.

    Sori is a curvature along the length of a blade, typically curving out towards the bevel side of the blade. I'm sure it can happen to blades from western or metal-bodied planes, but it may not be as much of an issue with them. Sori is a problem in kanna blades because it leads to poor fit between the blade and the upper rails of the mortise it fits into. Worst case, it can cause the edge to dig into the rails. With a chipbreaker, lever cap, and frog affixed to or in contact with the blade, I don't see blade curvature being as big a deal with a metal-bodied plane. I could be wrong, though.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Yep, I've done that as well, though I think you may be overestimating the degree of bevel I applied when you say "drastic". It was 1/4 deg (10 mil shim stock set 60 mm back from the edge).

    How thick is your UMHW tape and how far back from the edge?

    More broadly I'm personally not a fan of using back-beveling as a substitute for flattening, because you then lose control of the geometry of the bevel region leading to trouble with cap-iron mating. I think it works best as a polishing aid *after* flattening.
    To clarify, I was referring to using an actual ruler when I said 'drastic.' The UHMW tape I use is 5 mil thick, and I haven't measured exactly how far back from the edge I apply the tape. I adjust that based on the condition of the blade. I basically just use the tape to establish a flat area at the edge, that I can then work further up the blade as I continue to flatten the back without the tape. After a flat is established, and the blade is workable, I typically stop using the tape.

    I agree with you regarding back-bevelling as a substitute for flattening. I find the UHMW tape helps me get to flat, or at least planar, faster than without it.

  12. #87
    I don't see ruler trick as a substitute for flattening.

    It's good to flatten on something like 800g stone.

    RT just avoids polishing large ares of metal which do no cutting.

    Also increases probability of honing away wire edge.

    best wishes,
    David

  13. #88
    I see the rulertrick as a solution in search of a problem.

  14. #89
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    I'm not sure how one could keep a back from becoming highly polished over time and by that I mean a few months of concerted woodworking. And if you're in a hurry 3M and others make very fine grit abrasives that make imparting a mirror shine to tool steel child's play - ten minutes tops per iron even less for chisels. In light of this any workarounds seem quaint and outdated at best.

    I'm not necessarily in the camp that believes a mirror shine is an absolute necessity (if it is somebody will have to explain Chippendale, et al.), I don't guess it hurts, but it doesn't matter really as it's easy enough to impart and not just an angstrom's worth at the edge. Ten dollars' worth of auto body sandpaper and *problem* solved.

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by david charlesworth View Post
    Greetings,

    I have found this thread most interesting as it contains many of the objections routinely raised!

    My You Tube channel has a short video about how I do the ruler trick, and I hope this may be of some interest.

    I have been doing it to all blades except chisels for at least 30 years, and can see no disadvantages at all.

    Best wishes,
    David
    David says he sees no disadvantages. As I pointed out on this forum in July, the major disadvantage is the extra time needed to execute the "ruler trick", thirty seconds in his December 2015 video. As I recall the time to sharpen a plane iron was in excess of two minutes and that does not include any time for grinding, which he obviously does, or for stropping which he apparently omits.

    A minor disadvantage is the angle of the edge; David shows a 35 degree bevel angle plus a 2/3 degree back bevel. When I experimented with bevel angles forty years ago, I noticed a poorer result for bevel angles of 33 an 35 degrees (as opposed to 30). 35 2/3 is uncharted waters for me.

    I watched Charlesworth's 16 minute video (November 2016), which he referenced in this thread. In that video he mentions that Rob Cosman, Tom Fidgen, and Chris Schwartz also advocate the "ruler trick". What else do these fellows have in common with David? They are in the business of teaching beginners how to work wood. They have income derived from selling books, videos, classes. It seems that they are not so much teaching teenagers, hoping to follow the trade, as older guys who have sat in offices for years. Videos which show techniques that might frustrate an older guy are not profitable for these fellows.

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