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Thread: Ruler trick example

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normand Leblanc View Post
    Stewie,

    About a year ago, with a friend, we bought a large lot of tools from an estate. The man that had died didn't use his hand tools collection and they were bought from all over the place on a 30 years time frame and sharpened by many different woodworkers (as I have been told by his son).

    In this lot there was ~100 planes. None of those blades had a flattened back, none.

    Oh and we bought 13 router planes with blades as well.

    Normand
    Normand; that would indeed highlight why a lot of those earlier stones are out of flat. It should also be noted that a large majority of those earlier forged plane irons and chisels were not within a close flat tolerance during manufacture, and may go a long way to explain why more focus was placed upon the bevel side.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 11-21-2016 at 9:58 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Patrick; just because some of the feedback has questioned the merit of using a back bevel (ruler trick) does not make that discussion a waste of space.
    You're misunderstanding me: For someone like George or Warren this entire thread, including my initial post, is a waste of space. Fortunately they don't have to read it if they don't want to, and the subject made it pretty clear what the topic was so it's not like they were suckered in somehow.

  3. #63
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    that would indeed highlight why a lot of those earlier stones are out of flat. It should also be noted that a large majority of those earlier forged plane irons and chisels were not within a close flat tolerance during manufacture, and may go a long way to explain why more focus was placed upon the bevel side.


    My personal "theory" on this is, because the blades were so out of flat and all they had was oil stones, it would have taken forever to flatten those back so they didn't do it. Maybe they had some kind of strop...like your father?

    I've flatten may be 30/40 of those and I've develop a technique for that. Using a DMT fine, a few swipes to get an idea how out of flat that blade was. If very bad, hammer it down (I've broken one blade doing this). If not, use the ruler trick to create a ~1/4" wide flat at the edge then increase the thickness of the ruler using a hard Arkansas. Every chip breaker was "sharpened" to match.

    It was very quick and worked perfectly.

    Normand

  4. #64
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    Normand; I am always open to listening to alternate techniques, based on personal experience. Appreciate your feedback.

    regards Stewie;

  5. #65
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    Before I comment I want to make it clear that I think that your results speak for themselves, so I would never suggest that you should change anything about your technique. As always there's more than one way to do it (tm).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Those backs are very nicely done Patrick!

    WRT the ruler trick; I've used it an ultimately done away with it, I find it easier to remove the burr without it, given a flat back.

    I don't grind my bevels and that is why I find it to be frustrating. 1000~ will take away the wear, but when using the ruler trick I would need to grind heavily with a very rough stone first.
    If you needed to use a very rough stone to remove the back-bevel left by the ruler trick then you were applying a *much* deeper back-bevel than I do or than I think is needed.

    If you refer back to the image in #1, the back bevel there is a bit less than 0.5 mm thick. It's at atan((0.25 mm shim)/(60 mm setback)) = 0.25 deg, so the edge is recessed from the back by at most 0.5*tan(0.25) = 0.002 mm = 2 microns. In other words, just barely enough to remove the striations from the last grit that was used during flattening.

    #1000 is 10-15 um (depending on system), so even a #1000 stone is gross overkill for removing that amount of back bevel. I usually use ~3 um diamond paste when I want to remove the bevel, though more often I simply "freshen up" the back bevel at the same time as I work the face. Note that this also means that the blade-life impact of back-beveling is negligible.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 11-22-2016 at 12:52 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    You're misunderstanding me: For someone like George or Warren this entire thread, including my initial post, is a waste of space. Fortunately they don't have to read it if they don't want to, and the subject made it pretty clear what the topic was so it's not like they were suckered in somehow.
    They don't need to comment if the topic is of no use to them. Just because they poo pooh the subject doesn't mean it isn't worthy of discussion.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I see how what I wrote is a bit ambiguous, I meant I would need to grind away more of the main bevel to remove the back bevel when resharpening the blade. Normally I just remove the wear bevel.
    I don't see why you would need the grind the front bevel any more or less if you are using the ruler trick. That would be wasteful. I see for your situation though, not using it, that you in fact do need to grind away the wear bevel as part of your sharpening process.

  8. #68
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    Diamond paste is going to cut a lot faster than what I'm using (India, ark or ceramic waterstones), so I have a tendency to start with a rougher grit than what might be required in a system which uses diamond paste.

    I've been removing anything which adds time to a procedure, not so much initially, but in the process of working. Do I always dull an edge to the point where I want to work it on a 1000 grit stone on forward before returning to work? With planes, sometimes but not always. When I am finish planing something like a slab, I will take apart and hone the blade numerous times and that is when anything that complicates the process becomes something that one wants to remove from said process.

    Most of the time I will dull a blade to the point where I want to completely rework it, from a rough stone forward, but on those times that I do not it is much easier to use a flat bevel and bevel-free back.

    I think it is also worth noting that certain steels (A2) are going to be much easier to use with a back bevel.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    I don't see why you would need the grind the front bevel any more or less if you are using the ruler trick. That would be wasteful. I see for your situation though, not using it, that you in fact do need to grind away the wear bevel as part of your sharpening process.
    Pat, for the simple reason that one wants to repeat the microbevel as originally created to avoid having it grow.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #70
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    I only mean to TRY fostering actually MAKING THINGS. That is how you get somewhere as a craftsman,really.

    Theory is fine,and necessary,too, but sometimes it seems like the only thing that is discussed here.

    I'll try to not poo-poo your discussions.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Pat, for the simple reason that one wants to repeat the microbevel as originally created to avoid having it grow.
    Sure, that makes sense. Thanks Brian

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Pat, for the simple reason that one wants to repeat the microbevel as originally created to avoid having it grow.
    You don't need to remove it to achieve that. Just give it a swipe or two on your favorite polisher to remove any wear bevel and you're good to go. You do of course need to use the same shim at the same distance from the edge to preserve the angle.

  13. #73
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    Ok....for one, I do not use a back bevel on my edge tools. Two, I don't even own the required "ruler" to use the ruler trick. Nor have I ever found the need to do a back bevel.

    Been fun to watch all the arguments, though......need butter on the popcorn, though...

  14. #74
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    I accidentially threw mine away about 6 months ago.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    I only mean to TRY fostering actually MAKING THINGS. That is how you get somewhere as a craftsman,really.

    Theory is fine,and necessary,too, but sometimes it seems like the only thing that is discussed here.

    I'll try to not poo-poo your discussions.
    I understand George, today I spent some time in the shop using the bandsaw and a few things my doctors would frown upon. Though nothing too heavy was attempted.

    My theory is to keep it simple (actually not mine as it is an old theory, older than me). By my way of thinking there has to be a good reason to change what is working. My blades may be far from perfection, but they get the job done. I have tried a back bevel or ruler trick on some blades and wasn't impressed.

    Until someone provides a good answer as to why it should be done or how it will provide improvement I think I will wait for Steven to get a bit more butter on the popcorn and then bum a bowl full from him.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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