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Thread: Ruler trick example

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    David says he sees no disadvantages. As I pointed out on this forum in July, the major disadvantage is the extra time needed to execute the "ruler trick", thirty seconds in his December 2015 video. As I recall the time to sharpen a plane iron was in excess of two minutes and that does not include any time for grinding, which he obviously does, or for stropping which he apparently omits.

    A minor disadvantage is the angle of the edge; David shows a 35 degree bevel angle plus a 2/3 degree back bevel. When I experimented with bevel angles forty years ago, I noticed a poorer result for bevel angles of 33 an 35 degrees (as opposed to 30). 35 2/3 is uncharted waters for me.
    2/3 is on the high side, and IMO you don't need that much to achieve good polish at the edge. Charlesworth's reference technique corresponds to ~1/2 deg (assuming your "thin ruler" is about 1/2 mm thick) and I use 1/4 deg.

    Also, when you experimented with bevel angles did you keep the clearance angle constant? If not then your results aren't necessarily relevant to this discussion as you would have had a confounding variable in play that isn't an issue here.

  2. #92
    Well I am pleased that some more of the prejudices have surfaced.

    Kees,
    Many people work the back on the surface of a waterstone. It goes hollow, and the wire edge is no longer satisfactorily honed away on a flat polishing stone, hence the need for stropping. RT is a simple solution for this problem.

    Warren's stopwatch detects slowness of some seconds. So what?

    The idea that he will be able to distinguish between an edge of 35 degrees and 35 & 2/3 degrees is absurd.

    Best wishes,
    David

    PS I was hoping to encourage people to look at my demonstration of RT at

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQg...1t6BFLjEQ/feed

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    A minor disadvantage is the angle of the edge; David shows a 35 degree bevel angle plus a 2/3 degree back bevel. When I experimented with bevel angles forty years ago, I noticed a poorer result for bevel angles of 33 an 35 degrees (as opposed to 30). 35 2/3 is uncharted waters for me.
    I suspect your experimentation 40 years ago was with respect to bevel angle only with a typical Stanley 45 degree bed angle bevel down plane and what you experienced was decreased edge life, correct?

  4. #94
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    David: I had not previously been aware that you had some You Tube content available before this and was glad to see some of your experience displayed for others to evaluate. Thanks for putting it out there.
    David

  5. #95
    David,
    I am so glad you have enjoyed it.

    David C

  6. #96
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    A honing stone so out of flat that nowhere on its two broad surfaces (top or bottom) will it reach the burr on the flat side of a plane iron is in serious need of maintenance or replacement, not a trick or workaround. Help me understand how otherwise extraordinarily well-equipped operations find themselves consistently in this state of affairs and not once every fifth blue moon or so. In the time it took to refine this technique and post YouTube videos, write articles, etc. then stone maintenance could have occurred rendering the entire 'trick' moot.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 12-05-2016 at 3:37 PM.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    I suspect your experimentation 40 years ago was with respect to bevel angle only with a typical Stanley 45 degree bed angle bevel down plane and what you experienced was decreased edge life, correct?
    No, I did both bevel angle and bed angle experiments. I was already making planes that that time. I'm a little foggy on this, but I would say the symptoms of not enough clearance are a little different from symptoms of too great a bevel angle.

    In the 16.23 minute video, now linked to twice in this thread, Charlesworth himself mentioned the 2/3 degree bevel. Likely I couldn't tell the difference between a 35 and 35 2/3 cutting edge, but I certainly could tell the difference between 35 and 30. Charlesworth calls the extra time issue a spurious argument. Maybe if you make videos for a living. He calls the "ruler trick" proponents "adventurous" compared to the "traditionalists". My impression is that the "ruler trick" and the sharpening jig are designed to take the risk of failure from beginning sharpeners. Traditional technique might be for someone more adventurous.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    No, I did both bevel angle and bed angle experiments. I was already making planes that that time. I'm a little foggy on this, but I would say the symptoms of not enough clearance are a little different from symptoms of too great a bevel angle.
    Thanks for clarifying this Warren.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    A honing stone so out of flat that nowhere on its two broad surfaces (top or bottom) will it reach the burr on the flat side of a plane iron is in serious need of maintenance or replacement, not a trick or workaround. Help me understand how otherwise extraordinarily well-equipped operations find themselves consistently in this state of affairs and not once every fifth blue moon or so. In the time it took to refine this technique and post YouTube videos, write articles, etc. then stone maintenance could have occurred rendering the entire 'trick' moot.
    I'm not a user of the method, but it has absolutely nothing to do with not being able to maintain a flat stone.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    A honing stone so out of flat that nowhere on its two broad surfaces (top or bottom) will it reach the burr on the flat side of a plane iron is in serious need of maintenance or replacement, not a trick or workaround. Help me understand how otherwise extraordinarily well-equipped operations find themselves consistently in this state of affairs and not once every fifth blue moon or so. In the time it took to refine this technique and post YouTube videos, write articles, etc. then stone maintenance could have occurred rendering the entire 'trick' moot.
    Charles; the RT method is nothing less than another option available to the woodworker. No different that of freehand vs honing jig. No different to that of abandoning the traditional use of honing stones, in favour of an assortment of 3M abrasives.

    In my personal case;

    Do I rely on honing stones; yes.
    Do I routinely flatten my honing stones; yes.
    Do I restrict myself to freehand honing; no.
    Do I use the R/L method; no.
    Do I always rely on the advise given on ww forums; definitely not.

    Stewie;

    I'm not sure how one could keep a back from becoming highly polished over time and by that I mean a few months of concerted woodworking. And if you're in a hurry 3M and others make very fine grit abrasives that make imparting a mirror shine to tool steel child's play - ten minutes tops per iron even less for chisels. In light of this any workarounds seem quaint and outdated at best.

    I'm not necessarily in the camp that believes a mirror shine is an absolute necessity (if it is somebody will have to explain Chippendale, et al.), I don't guess it hurts, but it doesn't matter really as it's easy enough to impart and not just an angstrom's worth at the edge. Ten dollars' worth of auto body sandpaper and *problem* solved.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 12-05-2016 at 6:50 PM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I'm not a user of the method, but it has absolutely nothing to do with not being able to maintain a flat stone.
    I think a more thorough reading of the posts in the thread is in order. According to David Charlesworth it has everything to do with the condition of the stone:

    Kees,
    Many people work the back on the surface of a waterstone. It goes hollow, and the wire edge is no longer satisfactorily honed away on a flat polishing stone, hence the need for stropping. RT is a simple solution for this problem.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 12-05-2016 at 6:51 PM.

  12. #102
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    With regard to the photo in the original post, it would take maybe three minutes, five at the outside, to polish a good half inch or more of the iron with diamond paste or other modern abrasive to the same degree of polish as the narrow strip in the photo. You'd be done for the next five year's worth of work with five more minutes' work. Easy calculus for me. Why tediously polish the little strip time and again when it's easy enough to polish further up the cutter, once? I'm baffled that somebody would prefer to work this way day in and day out.

    If the stone is not reaching the burr then maintain the stone like one would any other tool that requires periodic maintenance of some sort.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 12-06-2016 at 7:34 AM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    It would take maybe three minutes, five at the outside, to polish a good half inch or more of the iron with diamond paste or other modern abrasive to the same degree of polish as the narrow strip in your photo. You'd be done for the next five year's worth of work with five more minutes' work. Easy calculus for me.
    Charles; if that post was aimed at me, then do me the courtesy of addressing my name.

    Stewie;

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Charles; if that post was aimed at me, then do me the courtesy of addressing my name.

    Stewie;
    Not aimed at you. Getting used to the format of this forum. It was in response to the photo in the original post.

    This technique is simply not needed in the era of modern abrasives, or probably ever. I suspect the last 1000 years+ or so of Asian craftsman would not recognize it as something necessary because of, or due to, rapidly eroding honing media.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 12-06-2016 at 7:02 AM.

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