Mortise wall smoothness question

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

I'm trying not to use any noisy power tools in my apartment where I learn how to build furniture and such from wood. I mostly use quiet hand tools. One of the most used joints in my projects thus far is mortise and tenon joint.

At the moment I'm good enough with making smooth and precise tenons using wide chisel and route plane. But with mortises I struggle much more. And the result is somewhat hairy mortise wall that is not 90 degree to the face.

How smooth it has to be with the modern glues? Or is it simply irrelevant because of other reasons?

[Prashun Patel]

Don't confuse flat with smooth. The mortise wall face needs to be flat. It has to be as vertical as your tenon cheek. Wood glues are not designed to gap-fill. Epoxy does a better job of that.

Keep sharp, and keep at it. You'll get it flat and vertical without a lot of frustration.

Now, as for QUIET, I think mortising is the most neighbor-annyoing operation you could perform, power and hand tool ops inclusive.

[Robert Engel]

Getting the mortise perfectly 90 is critical, especially when building doors, so you are on the right track.

A paring jig helps keep the wall 90 and flat. Paul Sellers has a quite nice one using a brass face. Check his recent video on building doors.

So long as the fit is snug I wouldn't too much about how smooth the walls are. However, with softwoods I often dress the walls with a fine file before fitting the tenon just to remove the fuzzies.

Although PVA glues are not "gap" filling, one has to define exactly what is a "gap". IMO you would have to have an extremely loose very poorly made joint for the glue to fail.

Also keep in mind a MT joint is technically a X grain glue up. I think of the glue as just hold the pieces together while the fit and precise shoulders are what give the joint its strength. I've seen antique pieces of furniture held together with no glue at all, just draw bored pins.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Don't confuse flat with smooth. The mortise wall face needs to be flat. It has to be as vertical as your tenon cheek. Wood glues are not designed to gap-fill. Epoxy does a better job of that.

Keep sharp, and keep at it. You'll get it flat and vertical without a lot of frustration.

Now, as for QUIET, I think mortising is the most neighbor-annyoing operation you could perform, power and hand tool ops inclusive.

That gives me hope, Prashun!

Maybe it is all because I try to make it as quiet as possible. So much that I drill out most of the waste material and then try to square it up and flatten with the chisels. Could it be not so optimal approach to it?

I cannot use my mallet most of the time to chop it out like in books. Maybe when I get some Sorbothane next week to cushion my massive workbench I would be able to use that more. This also makes my think more power tool way. A lot of noise of screaming router but for short time before someone calls police or comes to my door... also more smooth and flat and perpendicular to the face. Or something like domino. Or pantograph router. Or custom CNC setup for M&T. It could take me a year to build something like CNC. But I really would want to avoid all that and do it by hand.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Getting the mortise perfectly 90 is critical, especially when building doors, so you are on the right track.

A paring jig helps keep the wall 90 and flat. Paul Sellers has a quite nice one using a brass face. Check his recent video on building doors.

So long as the fit is snug I wouldn't too much about how smooth the walls are. However, with softwoods I often dress the walls with a fine file before fitting the tenon just to remove the fuzzies.

Although PVA glues are not "gap" filling, one has to define exactly what is a "gap". IMO you would have to have an extremely loose very poorly made joint for the glue to fail.

Also keep in mind a MT joint is technically a X grain glue up. I think of the glue as just hold the pieces together while the fit and precise shoulders are what give the joint its strength. I've seen antique pieces of furniture held together with no glue at all, just draw bored pins.

Thanks, Robert. Yes, I saw that brass guide of Paul. And also tried magnetic saw guide from Veritas. But it requires to use mallet to chop it out that annoys my neighbors.

And your remark about softwoods is very helpful too, because it is a softwood (pine) that I work with at the moment! I also use draw boring but only for big heavy loaded bridle joint...

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Andrey

I cut open a demo mortice that I chopped, and this is what the walls looked like ...



However, chopping is not the preferred method if you are looking to avoid noise. You could either drill out most of the waste with an auger bit, and then pare (I think that this would be the quietest method). Or you could push the mortice chisel with a shoulder (Adam Cherubini used to demo this technique).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, quiet while cutting a mortise is a non sequitur in my way of working.

Non Sequitur.png

(The main reason I'm familiar with the phrase 'non sequitur' is it's one of my favorite comic strips):

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

What about using a "Wood is Good" type (some type of hard urethane product?) mallet as opposed to a wooden one?

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Wow, quiet while cutting a mortise is a non sequitur in my way of working.

jtk

Nice one! Apparently, there is a difference between old Europe and new America that is not obvious but important for understanding. Somewhat in length well written here. That is the missing argument! But I tried hard to ignore it and even used contractor size table saw in my apartment a few times. Had to take half a day off of my office job to do it while other neighbors are not at home. And then wait 2 days for dust to settle down. And then vacuum clean the walls. Thankfully, one room in our apartment is "under construction" for several years already (thanks to my wife for allowing that). Hammering something also requires daylight working time and cannot be used on weekend. Stupid regulations!

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

What about using a "Wood is Good" type (some type of hard urethane product?) mallet as opposed to a wooden one?

I have tried rubber kind of mallet to see if it sounds different. But no, it makes the same boom to the floor and then translates to the neighbors. But cushioning the workbench might work as it has 300 lbs mass to reduce the boom. Going to try that next week.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Hi Andrey

I cut open a demo mortice that I chopped, and this is what the walls looked like ...

However, chopping is not the preferred method if you are looking to avoid noise. You could either drill out most of the waste with an auger bit, and then pare (I think that this would be the quietest method). Or you could push the mortice chisel with a shoulder (Adam Cherubini used to demo this technique).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek! That means that "hairy" is more or less standard for some centuries.

And interesting reference indeed, I kind of did what Adam Cherubini has probably demoed. It works but is very time consuming compared to pre-drilling waste out. Also painful to the shoulder, elbow and palms somewhat more.

Could it be that something machined like domino mortise would make a stronger joint because of the smooth surfaces? Still debating internally power/hand tools dilemma.

[James Waldron]

Wow, quiet while cutting a mortise is a non sequitur in my way of working.

Non Sequitur.png

(The main reason I'm familiar with the phrase 'non sequitur' is it's one of my favorite comic strips):

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/

jtk

I once campaigned a race boat named "Nonsequitur." We did pretty well, as "it did not follow." Took home a good bit of pewter. [What? You thought all those trophies were actually silver? Silly boy!]

[Prashun Patel]

Drilling is a great way to do it; or a brace and bit. A wide bench chisel can really help get a flat-plane mortise wall. I use a Narex for that; it was inexpensive. The problem with the wide chisels is that they are hard to use to pare thick shavings. I reserve my use of this chisel for the final cuts after getting within shooting distance with smaller chisels.

Now, I have seen really good mortise men chop with a mortise chisel and relying strictly on the sides of the mortise chisel to create a 'smooth/flat-enough' wall. I have witnessed that this is probably the fastest way to do it, once you get good. In fact, my teacher didn't even pry out the waste. He just chopped it into smitherenes. You can reduce the sound by mortising on a seated bench and using your thigh as the 'vise' to absorb some of the sound. I love doing this outside when the weather is warm...

[Stewie Simpson]

Don't confuse flat with smooth. The mortise wall face needs to be flat. It has to be as vertical as your tenon cheek. Wood glues are not designed to gap-fill. Epoxy does a better job of that.

Keep sharp, and keep at it. You'll get it flat and vertical without a lot of frustration.

Now, as for QUIET, I think mortising is the most neighbor-annyoing operation you could perform, power and hand tool ops inclusive.

Prashun; I find your comments on the need to keep the side walls of the mortise flat interesting. If you look at the following instructional attachment within the opening post, there is a deliberate slight undercutting of the side walls on a through mortise and tenon fit. shown in fig #6. From a practical perspective, I see no valid reason why you would want to deviate from that practice. A stopped mortise and tenon fit requires a slightly different approach, more similar to what you are prescribing. http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/m...s-t101694.html

Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

If you can design more through tenons into your work you can reduce the amount of chopping that is required. I like to minimize paring, it is a real time sink, but chopping out the remainder of a drilled out through mortise is less unbearable (for noise) than chopping out a mortise.

They're certainly more time consuming than cutting out plain mortises, but unless you are on the clock (so to speak) then slowing your project down should simply focus you more on the task at hand.

I sometimes do this chopping work over my rug to reduce the noise, I also wear hearing protection in practically every scenario that involves a mallet (hammer in my case). The rug will help with your neighbors, but the hearing protection...not so much.