Zinsser shellac advice wanted

[Mel Fulks]

Durable context. I have seen kitchen stuff tossed that was coated with conversion varnish that made it impractical to refinish after abuse. Granted ,people usually just want new stuff and don't want to refinish. Can't very well sand it off of veneer,it's so durable it's a pain,let's replace it! Types and qualities of shellac vary but it was used by US government as ingredient in wooden boat hull coatings through WW2. Things like mine sweepers that had to be wood. Quality fresh shellac applied to furniture handles water pretty well, and shellac is easily removed when neccesary; so the furniture doesn't have to be discarded. I'd say it is durable and makes the furniture durable.

[Patrick Chase]

Durable context. I have seen kitchen stuff tossed that was coated with conversion varnish that made it impractical to refinish after abuse. Granted ,people usually just want new stuff and don't want to refinish. Can't very well sand it off of veneer,it's so durable it's a pain,let's replace it! Types and qualities of shellac vary but it was used by US government as ingredient in wooden boat hull coatings through WW2. Things like mine sweepers that had to be wood. Quality fresh shellac applied to furniture handles water pretty well, and shellac is easily removed when neccesary; so the furniture doesn't have to be discarded. I'd say it is durable and makes the furniture durable.

Yep, and I called that out pretty clearly in comment #18. If you're willing to do regular maintenance then IMO shellac and nitrocellulose lacquer are hard to beat for fine furniture.

With that said, the context of this thread isn't fine furniture. It's kitchen cabinetry, and in that application water is the least of your worries with shellac. The fact that alcohol and ammonia dissolve it is much more problematic than for, say, a table. I don't know about you, but I would consider it to be undesirable if the finish on my kitchen cabinets dissolved because somebody knocked over a bottle of vodka or picked the wrong cleaner.

Also, the immediate subject of the last few exchanges about durability was Minwax Polycrylic, which is a water-based reactive finish and itself not all that easy to remove. If the application forces me to choose a reactive finish then I'd rather choose a one that won't *need* to be removed for a long time. Non-durable reactive finishes are just about the worst of all worlds IMO.

[Stewie Simpson]

The dewaxed allows you to topcoat it with your choice....Adhesion is the issue with non dewaxed..

Jerry you raise a valid point. My own preference to only use dewaxed shellac. If the last coat of shellac has been applied outside of 24hr time frame, then a light abrasion is recommended to maximise adhesion before the next coat is applied. The same scenario would apply if using something other than shellac for your next coat.

[James Pallas]

Well this runs the course. Derek can use a readily available finish, not necessarily minwax. Or buy tens of thousands of dollars of spray equipment, booths and lighting etc. for his cabinets. Spray them with finishes that are certified by an organization that is run by manufacturers of kitchen cabinets. The ones that put their sticker on particle board cabinets with vinyl sheet faces and latex painted backs. It's all covered. He just wanted a brush or wipe applied finish, I believe, that would stay fairly clear.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

For furniture, my favourite finishes are dewaxed shellac (Ubeaut white shellac), waxed shellac (amber, made from flakes), and Livos Universal Wood Oil (also imparts a slight amber tint). None of these is suitable for kitchen cabinet doors. Neither durable nor an enduring clear/white for Hard Maple.

The one rule of thumb I have learned so far is that only a water-based acrylic finish remains clear and does not go yellow. Anything that is oil-based immediately adds a yellow tinge. So I am after a water-based finish.

To repeat, the finish must not require spray equipment or be hazardous.

The one recommended that leads the line up is Minwax Polycrylic. This is available in Oz. Perhaps not the most durable, but significantly more so than dewaxed shellac.

Apparently better (more durable) are Hydrocote Resisthane Plus, and General Finish Enduro, but neither of which I can find locally.

Anything else along these lines?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Derek-
Take this question to the Finishing Forum. You can also PM John Ten Eyk, Scott Holmes, and Jim Becker. They'll have good advice for you w/r/t alternatives to Minwax Polycrylic.

Can you get General Finishes Enduro Clear Poly or Target Coatings products where you are? These can be brushed and are water white.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

General Finishes Enduro Clear Poly and Target Coatings products are not available in Oz. I am not sure if there are equivalents. Still searching.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Well this runs the course. Derek can use a readily available finish, not necessarily minwax. Or buy tens of thousands of dollars of spray equipment, booths and lighting etc. for his cabinets.

More like hundreds for something like an Earlex. Even the higher-end HVLP rig I have (a Fuji Q5) is only about $1.5K. You can improvise the booth and lighting quite cheaply. If you spray solvents then you need an explosion-proof fan for your improvised booth, but even that doesn't cost much from industrial supply houses.

[Dave Cav]

Regarding the Minwax Polycrylic, that's all I let my students use when I was teaching high school woodshop. I got rid of all of the solvent based finishes due to the mess, safety problems, and so on. I bought it by the gallon (also the Minwax WB stain) and poured it into plastic jugs for ease of handling, and then into little 8 ounce plastic containers for the students to use. We used it on everything from little boxes to tables, pretty much everything. It was easy to apply- I saw kids slopping it on with paper towels, brushes, their fingers.....it cures in about 24 hours and then you can sand or rub out with steel wool pretty easily. It's a lot more durable than shellac, and doesn't change the color of the wood.

The only problem with it is that since it's water based, the first coat will raise the grain and need to be lightly sanded, unless you raise the grain with water and sand before application.

[Prashun Patel]

Jim,

That's overstating it. Yes, Derek is set on NOT spraying. However, it doesn't cost 'tens of thousands of dollars' to spray hvlp; nor does it require an expensive booth set up. Waterbased spraying has become cheap and easy to safely perform. I've been spraying wb for a couple years in my garage with nothing but a box fan and an organic half mask respirator, and a Rockler HVLP. My total outlay was under $200, and that includes the cost of the soap box I bought to now stand on and preach the gospel about hvlp

Derek has more experience than I in most matters wood, but I just wanted to be sure that any desire to avoid HVLP is based on knowledge of current technology, not where things might have been even a couple years ago.

[James Pallas]

Prashun, I would agree that spraying non flamable liquids is not nearly as dangerous. However there was suggestions about flamable finishes. Non flamable also does not mean non toxic or not harmful. We spend a lot of time talking about the dangers of wood dust and such but not much about chemicals used by woodworkers. A spray set up for flamable liquids is very different than water. Light fixtures, switches, electric motors, relays, static sparks etc. Where does the exhaust go, in your neighbors window, to your children's playground, your pets house? There is a lot more to it than a twenty dollar window fan and some cardboard boxes. I've spayed plenty including all kinds of finishes. I was taught that no mater what is sprayed it's in the air until it settles out or is taken out and where it settles makes a difference. There is still lead along most of the nations highways from car and truck exhaust. Same lead as in lead based paint.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

Prashun, I would agree that spraying non flamable liquids is not nearly as dangerous. However there was suggestions about flamable finishes. Non flamable also does not mean non toxic or not harmful. We spend a lot of time talking about the dangers of wood dust and such but not much about chemicals used by woodworkers.

I don't know who "we" is here, because most woodworkers I know are acutely aware of finish toxicity. Many finishes are almost as toxic and mobile when you sand them as when you spray them, so avoiding spraying is no panacea. I wear a full-face respirator whenever I finish with anything more volatile than BLO or shellac (and sometimes even with the latter).

Perhaps by "we" you actually mean that *you* have less-than-comprehensive knowledge of woodworking hazards and mitigations?

A spray set up for flamable liquids is very different than water. Light fixtures, switches, electric motors, relays, static sparks etc.

A spray setup for flammables is indeed different, but it's not quite as dramatic as you make it out. The solvent concentrations involved present a combustion risk in the immediate area of the booth and particularly its exhaust. You therefore need to be careful about the fan and any task lighting.

Where does the exhaust go, in your neighbors window, to your children's playground, your pets house?

Depends on the finish. Most solvent-based finishes dry out VERY quickly, such that all that is left is the vaporized solvent and the "dry spray". In addition, the filtration in a properly designed exhaust setup captures wet finish. It won't coat anything outside of the booth's immediate exhaust. There are a range of opinions about the aggregate and long-term hazards of the vaporized solvents themselves, though in any case finishes have gotten MUCH better in that respect due to SCAQMD's influence.

There is a lot more to it than a twenty dollar window fan and some cardboard boxes.

There are a HUGE range of options between "a twenty dollar window fan and some cardboard boxes" and "tens of thousands of dollars", which are the two alternatives you've presented. Nobody in their right mind uses either for hobbyist-quantity work. For example I specifically mentioned the availability of relatively inexpensive explosion-proof fans from industrial supply houses.

We can return to this if/when you're ready to have a reality-based discussion instead of dealing exclusively in hysteria and false dichotomies.

[James Pallas]

Patrick, Spent most of my career as a building code official. I'm very familiar with the requirements for spray booths and equipment. Someone wishes to risk they can do it. There are however rules in building codes, life safety codes and fire codes about these issues for a reason. If you have a different ideas that are better I suggest you get the codes changed so everyone can set up a spray booth for flamable spraying at a residence or in a residential neighborhood. No hysteria here.
Jim

[Stewie Simpson]

Ease up you 2 guys; remember the OP is not wanting the services of a spray booth.

[Derek Cohen]

I took the plunge - probably pretty safe (albeit it pricey!) - to use General Finishes QTHS High Performance Water Based Topcoat. Via Amazon as it is not available in Oz, and I cannot find something similar.


I was alerted me to a review done by FWW in 2006. This, along with recommendations from a few others, really supported its choice as the top finish that was clear (non-yellowing), non plastic finish, maximum protection, able to be applied with a foam brush, and quick drying for re-coating.


Thanks all.


Regards from Perth


Derek