Technical specification for my new laser machine - a few questions

[Erik Goetheer]

Hi Guys, I just found this forum a few weeks ago during my search for information about laser cutters and engravers, and I must say that this is one of the best forums I joined ever. There are many members here with a lot of 'professional' knowledge and experience, and better yet, who are happy to share this with newbies like me. Thank you all. And the atmosphere is great too!

A short introduction of myself, I'm a middle-aged man from The Netherlands with virtual no experience with laser machines whatsoever, but eager to learn and very interested in the possibilities of these machines, both as a hobby and business-wise. So, I'm soaking up every bit of information I can find on the www, found some great youtube channels and scanned and read almost each topic on this subforum that was posted this calender year.

And yes, I'm going to take the step and I will buy a laser engraver / cutter soon, probably within the next few months. And because I'm Dutch, but also because I like a little adventure, it most likely will be a Chinese 'quality-brand', directly imported. Although, a rebranded European brand could also be a possibility, if not too expensive (maybe secondhand). At the moment I have Ray Fine, Shenhui, Bodor, ThunderLaser, Triumph and Longtai on my checklist, and BRM Lasers in Europe. Note to myself: Avoid EBAY!!

Anyway, at the moment I'm getting my specification of the machine, additional equipment and spares together ( it will be a 80W machine with a 600x900 working area) and I might have some questions, for which I couldn't find any good information (or I missed it). I will post all my questions etc. in this topic.

To start, I somewhat know the technical difference between stepper motors and servo based motors, which are used to control the movement of the x- and y-axis, but how does this translate to the output quality of laser machines, in their capacity as cutters and engravers? Are there huge quality differences, like the smoothness of engraved material?

Another question: why are Chinese machines in general slower with engraving tasks then the AAA brands? Has this to do with the controller (software)? And have the rebranded Chines machines the same 'issue'?

I'm looking forward to your input and I hope that I will soon join you, owning and using a very nice cutting and engraving laser machine.

[Neville Stewart]

As far as I know you won't find a Chinese machine with servos, and that is one reason why they aren't as fast or accurate as servo driven machines, also why they are considerably cheaper. There is a Dutch based reseller who I would recommend if they give "local" support. I can't recall their name I'm afraid. The price difference is usually worth it to avoid some headaches. I would add, as cutting machines, they do quite well but they other require a good knowledge of control software, and electro mechanics.

[Erik Goetheer]

Thunderlaser uses servo motors in their Mars serie. At least, that's what they tell us on their website and pdf docs.

[Erik Goetheer]

I'm checking out some possible machine candidates in detail before requesting quotes, like the LongTai LT-6090, Ray Fine RF-9060 and the ThunderLaser Nova 35. I'm also interested in the SH-G690 from Shenhui but I can't get access to their website www.chinashenhui.com, it's redirected to Alibaba and I don't like Alibaba that much, had some bad experience in the past with electronics that I bought. And I read that a few valuable employees left Shenhui pretty recent to other laser companies, has this influenced the quality in any way of Shenhui as a possible suppler?

From the ones listed above, which one do you guys think offers the best value for money? Not only for the laserparts, but also the with regard to the built quality of the machine and the (after-sales) service?

And does anyone has experience with Sukelaser, in casue the SK-9060 model?

[Bert Kemp]

Have you Looked at Rabbit Laser? One of the best Built Chinese machines with a good reputation.

[Kev Williams]

I'm no laser genius by any means, but from experience, DC glass lasers being slow have nothing to do with the drive system and everything to do with the DC glass laser...

I've ran my Triumph a few times at 800mm/sec (out of 1000mm/sec possible) and the engraving quality really starts to suffer. Backlash adjustments only do so much at 800. I've never bothered to try 1000, even though the machine will run that fast.

I run mine at 600 to 700 on 'forgiving' jobs like leather and wood, but not on work such as operator panels and machine labels where I (and my customers) require fine detail. 500 is my max speed for turning out pristine engraving, which is a whopping 19.7" per second... But hey, it beat's 0" per second, slow & steady still makes me money...

The simple fact (as I see it) is a glass laser simply won't react fast enough to sustain highly detailed high-speed engraving, you only get one or the other... Better steppers or servos and controllers may help some, but until someone figures out how to get a glass laser to turn full on and full off anywhere near as fast as an RF metal laser, 25" per second is about the max speed possible with decent results.

[David Somers]

Eric,

I have a Ray Fine 900x600 80watt machine if I can answer any questions for you. You are right, engraving on a Chinese machine is slower than the Western Lasers, with the Trotecs being at the top of the speed list. They are comparable though in terms of cutting speeds. I dont believe you will find much engraving speed distance between the direct from China units and the units imported and reworked by a local company.

I am very pleased with Ray Fine and my sales person/technical liason Blanca Yan has been terrific to work with.

Be prepared to deal with the date/time zone differences, as well as the huge disparities in holidays with a Chinese purpose. Their holidays are numerous and long and you will get little to no service during most of them. Just be aware. When ordering direct from China you need a fair degree of independance even with the good companies.

You might ask folks here who their Shenhui direct sales people have been. You may be able to work with them direct rather than through Alibaba. You might make that a separate post to catch peoples attention.

BTW. Although I talk about Ray Fine a modest amount and have recommended them, I dont get any considerations from them for that. I just had a good experience with them and Blanca and have been passing that on. I might add that Blanca used to work at Shenhui in sales and moved over to Ray Fine. She was recommended to me specifically by a number of people and when I called her I didnt realize at first she had moved. She was a quite good to work with.

Holler if you need any info or help.

And the best luck with your purchase!

Dave

[Neville Stewart]

I'm no laser genius by any means, but from experience, DC glass lasers being slow have nothing to do with the drive system and everything to do with the DC glass laser...

I've ran my Triumph a few times at 800mm/sec (out of 1000mm/sec possible) and the engraving quality really starts to suffer. Backlash adjustments only do so much at 800. I've never bothered to try 1000, even though the machine will run that fast.

I run mine at 600 to 700 on 'forgiving' jobs like leather and wood, but not on work such as operator panels and machine labels where I (and my customers) require fine detail. 500 is my max speed for turning out pristine engraving, which is a whopping 19.7" per second... But hey, it beat's 0" per second, slow & steady still makes me money...

The simple fact (as I see it) is a glass laser simply won't react fast enough to sustain highly detailed high-speed engraving, you only get one or the other... Better steppers or servos and controllers may help some, but until someone figures out how to get a glass laser to turn full on and full off anywhere near as fast as an RF metal laser, 25" per second is about the max speed possible with decent results.

I retrospect Kev, that makes more sense. Steppers and stepper drivers are cheaper and that helps the price.

[Erik Goetheer]

Hi Bert, Rabbit Laser as in the Chinese company King Rabbit? I will check them out, the machines on their website look promising.

Dave, I have noticed in a few topics on the forum that you're a great fan of Ray Fine, or Blanca (I wonder what her real Chinese name is)? But I'm sure that the information that you give us is real and objective. Ray Fine is on the top of my list, but I want to select two or three other machine suppliers. It's always good to have comparison.

[Erik Goetheer]

Allright, I think that I have my specs list pretty complete, so I'm ready to get some quotes. But not before I have let you guys take a look at it. Of course each machine company has it's specifuc machine specs, but this is the general list that I will use:

Request for a price quotation for:


Laser Machine: ………

- Voltage: 220V – 50Hz
- Work area 600 mm x 900 mm
- Wattage of Laser: 80W
- CE certified
- Ruida controller (has to work with RDWorks 8)
- Steel honeycomb bed
- Motorized in height adjustable working table
- EFR ZS-1250 laser tube (Rated Power 80W) or Resi W2 (Rated Power 80W)
- 50 mm lense (2”)
- CW-5000 chiller
- Centrifugal exhaust fan
- DSP Menu interface in English

Prices of the following options:

- Red dot pointer
- Auto focus
- Ammeter installed nearby the DSP display
- Air pressure regulator mounted near the laserbeam nozzle
- Rotary axis add-on

Price differences when I select:

- Resi W2 (Rated Power 80W) instead of EFR ZS-1250

Prices of additional spares:

- 38 mm lense (1.5”) with its own lenstube and nozzle for this small lense
- 50 mm lense (spare for the one mounted on the laserhead)
- 76 mm lense (3”) with its own lenstube and nozzle
- 3-piece set of mirrors
- Drive belt for the x-axis

That's about it.

About the controller, which is the brain of the machine, do I have to look for a specific controller type from Ruida and what other controller could be advices besides Ruida, in the same price range? is it necessary to add multicolour support (ordening the job and one-job engraving+cutting) to the list above, or do all controllers support that?

Did I miss anything? Or have I overdone something? Of course I will also ask for warranty, delivery-time, shipping costs-, shipping methods (fob, cif etc), insurance during shipping and other delivery procedures, payment methods (I prefer to pay with my cc) and other important stuff like possible colors

[Bert Kemp]

Yes King Rabbit in China. I bought one from a USA distributor as I wanted the support and training and I'm happy with it. Built like a brick ..... House LOL over 2 years now very small problems most operator error or corel stuff.

Hi Bert, Rabbit Laser as in the Chinese company King Rabbit? I will check them out, the machines on their website look promising.

Dave, I have noticed in a few topics on the forum that you're a great fan of Ray Fine, or Blanca (I wonder what her real Chinese name is)? But I'm sure that the information that you give us is real and objective. Ray Fine is on the top of my list, but I want to select two or three other machine suppliers. It's always good to have comparison.

[Kev Williams]

...a Chinese machine is slower than the Western Lasers, with the Trotecs being at the top of the speed list.

Not to split hairs (ok, so maybe a little bit ) ...
ttsp.jpg ggsp.jpg

[Bert Kemp]

Does that say 4000 mmps, and how fast are the trotec's? Also when I went to the UVLS open house they claim to be faster then Trotec at least thats what the sales guy said. Yes I know he's a salesmen, but did he out and out lie to us?

[Gary Hair]

The machine speed only really matters if the rest of it can keep up. My 30 watt GCC moved at 80 IPS in raster mode but there wasn't much that I could mark effectively at that speed, so in reality it wasn't an 80 IPS machine. My 80 watt Speedy 400 however, can keep up with the high speed and still produce marks on quite a few substrates, so it truly is a 240 IPS machine. There is also acceleration - the Trotec machines have unusually high acceleration that allows them to get up to that high speed faster than most machines so it can actually attain max speed in a very short distance. Trotec is also built like a tank so it can maintain accuracy at maximum speed.

Speed, acceleration, power, accuracy, etc., all have a big part in what really matters - throughput - how much (quality) engraving can you actually do with your machine in a given period of time. If you have the "fastest" machine but it takes forever to accelerate and is low powered and can't maintain accuracy, then that speed doesn't matter.

[Erik Goetheer]

I took the jump yesterday and asked for quotations at some Chinese suppliers for an 80W 600x900 laser machine with all the good stuff in it and with it. One of them is Thunderlaser who in a reply told me that they use their 'own' Thunderlaser brand laser tube, tested and with warranty. Of course I replied asking for more specifics, but has anyone here experience with the Thunderlaser 'own' brand?