Equipment for Tongue & Groove Flooring

[James Phelan]

I have recently “inherited” a collection of Douglas Fir salvaged from a 1940’s vintage property. I have a pretty large variety of types including 7” x 17” beams, 1.5” x 4.75” tongue and grove (2,000 square feet), and 1.5” x 11.0” joists (10,000 square feet). The wood was pretty high quality to begin with but as a result of the age and the salvage is a bit beat up now. However, most of it is in 20 foot lengths so I have a lot to work with in each piece. The wood also has some sentimental value as there was a lot of history in the building it was salvage from.

All of the wood is currently sitting on a property where I am currently in the process of building a house. I was originally going to use the beams in the house and then the rest of the wood was going to be used to make some cabinets and furniture. However, after looking at the tongue and groove I am now thinking about using it for flooring as well. Since I don’t have enough existing tongue and grove for the entire house (I need another 3,000 SF) I was thinking of ripping the 1.5x11” down to size and turn into matching tongue and groove.

This is where I need help. I am an amateur woodworker that can make simple furniture like shelves cabinets, and drawers. I build perhaps a couple of pieces a year in my free time. I have absolutely no experience with flooring. Despite the fact that my limited experience, money, and common sense tells me that I should find someone to do the job for me, I would like to do it myself. I have the materials and since the flooring will not be needed until early 2018 at the earliest I have the time to learn. However, I am not sure if I have the right equipment.

From everything I have read to date, I know flooring is going to require a much higher level of precision and throughput than tools I have been using to date. For starters, I currently have a Rigid table saw. Given the condition of the wood will this be enough precision to rip the 1.5x11” stock down to size or do I need to get a SLR saw or a jointer to run post ripped product through before going to the next step? I have a Rigid miter saw as well that has been a staple of my shop which I would use to cut to length. Is it going to be square enough for flooring or am I going to need upgrade that as well?

Finally, I know my Delta planer and Ryobi router are not going to cut it and have been looking at other options. I was originally thinking of upgrading from a router to a shaper but am now considering just going directly to a moulder. I am currently looking at getting the Logosol Ph260 ECO. This is a pretty big jump in terms of technology and capacity but it would be pretty useful for any future projects and I can recoup some of the costs by “renting” it out to a few friends who would be happy to have access to such a machine. Assuming I am willing to bite the bullet on costs, is this machine worth it? Are there any other makes/models I should be looking at?

Any thoughts on my equipment or even general advice on making flooring would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,

James Phelan

[Martin Wasner]

You're biting off more than you can chew. I own a decently equipped cabinet shop, I wouldn't touch that job with a ten foot pole with the equipment that I have, even if it were for my own house. I do realize you are talking about your own house.

You're going to need access to a sawmill to make the beams into boards, or at the very least a conveyor fed resaw.
You're going to need a really good straightline rip saw if you want to keep the 20' lengths.
You're going to need a moulder. The unit you posted is most likely too light duty to do what you want well. Even in Fir. Installing poorly milled flooring is a nightmare. Well machined is a dream. You will need something more like this. Then you still have to buy heads, inserts, and a way to sharpen those inserts.


I would look to outsource it. I don't run any complicated mouldings in the shop. The guy I use charges $75 for setup. $.10/ft to rip. $.25/ft to run it through the moulder. I drop lumber, pick up mouldings.

Lets say you need 2000 sq/ft of flooring, and you want it all 3" wide. That's about 8000 ln/ft of material. That's $2900 to mill it. I'm not certain what they charge, or what their protocol is for end matching either. I'm sure that has added cost. I'd spend $200 here in the shop just disposing of sawdust and drops between labor and dumpster costs, but I have only the most basic of dust collection systems in the current shop. Bag dust collectors. Hogging out two edges, planing the top, and a relief cut on the back, you'll be dumping a two bag collector I'm guessing four times an hour. That's if your running at a fairly slow 20(ish)fpm. Figuring zero empty machine time at 20fpm, 8000 lin/ft will take six hours, forty minutes.


Personally, I think it's nuts to try it without the right tools.

[Rod Sheridan]

I've made flooring, in fact I have all the material milled for a dining room and living room in my townhouse.

I milled it from ash trees lost to the emerald ash borer.

I jointed it on the jointer with a power feeder, then planed it.

I straight line ripped it on the sliding table saw, then ripped it a couple of mm oversize on the saw with the feeder.

I have a head with insert knives for the shaper, that's the next step.

It's a ton of work, and as Martin indicated it generates a mountain of chips................Regards, Rod.

[lowell holmes]

I would rather build a house than make flooring, but that's just me.

I suggest you make one or two flooring boards with the equipment you have and see if that's really what you want to do.

[Ronald Mancini]

I've made lots of T&G for ceilings. The wood started as sawmill cut and ended up as finished T&G. I used 3/4 inch thickness, the other 3/4 inch on your wood will be a big job to handle. I used 10 foot lengths because they were easy to handle and about as long as I could get in Florida for a reasonable price. I figured that I carried each board 17 times through planing, jointing, sawing to straight, and molding two sides. Saved on cost, but I worked like a dog. The wood was 2nd cut cypress, and it looks much better than pine.

[J.R. Rutter]

~400 strips @ 20' cut from 11" wide joists? No thanks! Realistically, that is about 2 to 2.5 days with a SLR and moulder for one person, assuming there is good material handling equipment as well.

Maybe if you have some teenagers who would work for cheap. Figure it would take two of them a week to run that job on a table saw and Logosol.

[lowell holmes]

I've made lots of T&G for ceilings. The wood started as sawmill cut and ended up as finished T&G. I used 3/4 inch thickness, the other 3/4 inch on your wood will be a big job to handle. I used 10 foot lengths because they were easy to handle and about as long as I could get in Florida for a reasonable price. I figured that I carried each board 17 times through planing, jointing, sawing to straight, and molding two sides. Saved on cost, but I worked like a dog. The wood was 2nd cut cypress, and it looks much better than pine.

In a case like this, I would make the tongue and groove. It would be separate projects, the first being making the lumber. I have cutters for my shaper that will do the job.

I just consider running the shaper as a hazardous operation. There is so much exposure to eye damage from splintered boards and finger injuries. I have a shaper and use it, but I am on pins and needles as the saying goes while operating it. I've never been injured using it, but still . . . ....

[Martin Wasner]

~400 strips @ 20' cut from 11" wide joists? No thanks! Realistically, that is about 2 to 2.5 days with a SLR and moulder for one person, assuming there is good material handling equipment as well.

I think that might be conservative even. Fighting material that length would be a bear

[mreza Salav]

I'm crazy enough to have done many things most people won't do but building the flooring isn't one of them (and will never be).

[Jim Becker]

I'm with the subcontract it crowd. That's exactly what my general contractor did for the flooring we needed for our addition in 2008...we needed about 2500 square feet of wide pine flooring. He bought the material and had it milled by someone that specializes in running flooring. It's not just the T&G you have to deal with, but also the relief milling on the back side of the material to help insure it "ages well" over time.

And wow...I bet that D-fir makes for an outstandingly beautiful floor!

[Phillip Mitchell]

The fact that you are asking the question among experienced folks shows that you at least have some sense, though I think that attempting what you're considering without specialized equipment and experience is ridiculous. When you add up all the time and associated costs with acquiring and maintaining the right equipment and actually running the flooring, you will be way behind in $$ compared to what you could likely pay a couple of specialized folks to do it and likely do it better than your first time out. 20' lengths! You'd need another person at least at all times to help handle lengths like that.

I would listen to Martin as he as already pointed out exactly what I was going to say (and more!) and is exactly right in my experience.

I'd love to see some photos of all that Doug Fir! What was the building that it was salvaged from? Are you familiar with the (defunct) Long-Bell Lumber Company? Link here -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Bell_Lumber_Company . There has been some amazing old growth Douglas Fir salvaged over the years from their buildings and mills that has been coveted by timber framers from all over the world.

[James Phelan]

I greatly appreciate all the responses. It certainly confirms that I have asked the question at the right place. The fact that everyone is essentially saying subcontract the job is definitely not lost of me. However, it is something I still would really like to try for a few reasons. I have plenty of time, I think it would be a great opportunity for me dad and I to spend time together working on something that is tangible, and most importantly I think is an opportunity to teach my three daughters an important lesson. I see it as a great way to remind them that not everything comes in a box from China and show them that if you are really willing to put in hard labor you can create something special.

It does sound like I am going to have to upgrade my shop if I want to get it done in my lifetime however. I would greatly appreciate any recommendations on a SLR saw or alternative moulders to the Ph260.

20160922_142714.jpg

I have uploaded a picture of some of the wood above before it was properly stored. It takes up a 20' x 40' piece of my property and is stacked about 4' heigh. The existing tongue and groove is on the left and some of the joists are on the right with the big beams in the center.

Respectfully,

James Phelan

[Darcy Warner]

I run a Ekstrom Carlson SLR
an a Mattison 404. Check the chains, a new one is about 8k for the chain, my 404 has a new chain. Need lots of power and something big enough to move a 5 to 6 thousand pound saw.

[Jim Becker]

If you want to make the investment, you'll need to deal with thicknessing, straight-lining and milling. Unless you plan on going into the flooring business, you'll probably want to acquire machinery that's more versatile...heavy planer for thicknessing and a shaper with a power feeder for the milling processes. Straight-lining is a bit more of a conundrum in that respect. I can't make a recommendation there as I'm not familiar with that kind of machinery. Oh, and a lot of time for the repetitive work required to process all that lumber from start to finished flooring. I did one small room with wide white pine "manually" and it was almost more than I could handle!

[J.R. Rutter]

What kind of power do you have available?

The big American saws are well suited to handling long stock, but finding a good one might take some time. It might run counter to your theme, but the compact Asian SLR saws do fine if they have good infeed/outfeed support tables. I run 16' stock on mine with no problem (never received any lumber longer than this). Take your pick of models, but look hard at the anti-kickback pawls and get one with both overhead and table mounted fingers. Having a laser for lining up the first cut is nice, but a paint line on the infeed table would work fine for your job.

For moulders, if you don't need the back relief cut, a 4-head feed through is more compact, has lower power requirement, and is less money than a 5-head. Euro machines like Weinig, Wadkin, SCM, and Asian models like Leadermac, Northtec, etc. are all pretty similar and can be had in different motor voltages. Older American models are out there as well, I'm just not familiar with them. Do not skimp on dust collection.