Salmen Master Oil Stone.

[Stewie Simpson]

Good to hear Tom. A word of caution. Don't use this process on man-made Norton Crystolon/Carborundum Oil Stones.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

As requested; I am forwarding the feedback after testing the Arkansas stone with water as the only lubricant. The 1st observation to note was that after spraying the top surface of the stone with water, the water did not soak within the stone, but maintained a unified float of film. That indicates to me that the stone is not porous by nature, but more tightly bound within its make up.

The 2nd observation to make is that when the stone surface was being worked by the chisel, the sound being given off was much deeper in tone to that experienced when oil was used as lubricant. A much more grittier sound. One could feel the chisels edge being worked in closer contact with the grain structure of the stone, versus having a float of oil interfere between the 2 surfaces.

The time taken to form an appreciable secondary bevel imo was 1/2 that compared to using oil, but apologies need to be made, as I did nor record the exact time difference. The sheen formed on the secondary bevel, to my eyes, looked no different to that being worked on oil, but one would expect it to be slightly lower.

The level of sharpness straight from the stone more than matched my requirements within woodworking, as testament by the paper test shown within the 2 following photo's.

Conclusion; as a once only test, I see no valid reason to return to using oil on this Arkansas stone. If any issues later arise on the question of water versus oil in preventing the stones surface from glazing over or clogging up, that would be dealt with during the normal practice of resurfacing during periodical stone flattening.

All attempts have been made to remain impartial within my findings.

Hopefully you found the above mentioned topic of some interest. If you decide to de-oil any of your sharpening stones in the future, make sure they are not a man-made Norton Crystolon/Carborundum, as this will likely destroy the manufacturers oil pre-fill.

On to the photo's.

regards Stewie;

[Jim Koepke]

Hopefully you found the above mentioned topic of some interest.

Yes, it is of interest.

This makes me wonder if the water versus oil preference on hard stones is due to the possibility of water causing rust?

Currently in my shop it is getting to the time of year where it is too cold to use my water stones. Even today without the water being frozen, it didn't seem appealing to soak my stones and then pick them out of a 34º water bath. Besides it is likely going to be colder tonight. Leaving wet water stones out when it might dip below freezing doesn't seem like a good idea.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

The time taken to form an appreciable secondary bevel imo was 1/2 that compared to using oil, but apologies need to be made, as I did nor record the exact time difference. The sheen formed on the secondary bevel, to my eyes, looked no different to that being worked on oil, but one would expect it to be slightly lower.

What sort of oil were you using?

My guess is that you're seeing faster cutting with water due to its lower viscosity and therefore lower tendency for the tool to "float" above the abrasive peaks of the stone. If that's the case then you might be able to get a similar benefit with a lower-viscosity oil, like kerosene or mineral spirits.

[Jim Koepke]

What sort of oil were you using?

My guess is that you're seeing faster cutting with water due to its lower viscosity and therefore lower tendency for the tool to "float" above the abrasive peaks of the stone. If that's the case then you might be able to get a similar benefit with a lower-viscosity oil, like kerosene or mineral spirits.

How are kerosene or mineral spirits on bare skin?

Sometimes my gloves with the fingertips cut off are worn when sharpening. Nitrile or latex gloves don't work for me when trying to sharpen.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

What sort of oil were you using?

My guess is that you're seeing faster cutting with water due to its lower viscosity and therefore lower tendency for the tool to "float" above the abrasive peaks of the stone. If that's the case then you might be able to get a similar benefit with a lower-viscosity oil, like kerosene or mineral spirits.

Patrick; I have been using Dan's Honing Oil. Appreciate your advice on the use of a spirit based lubricant, but I am not going to start spraying a spirit base over my stones, due to concerns with the volatile fumes, and other long term safety concerns. The water spray will do just fine for this particular stone.

Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

What kind of Arkansas stone is this Stewie? Soft, hard?

[Stewie Simpson]

Kees; based on its SG of 2.37, its ranked within the hard range of Ark. http://www.danswhetstone.com/stone_grades_101.htm

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

This makes me wonder if the water versus oil preference on hard stones is due to the possibility of water causing rust?

After using water as a lubricant on any of my stones, I end the honing process by wiping the blades surface down with honing oil as a precautionary measure against rusting.

Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

I only have a translucent Arkansas and a Washita. I agree with you that the cutting speed of these stones ain't great. I use the Washita as an intermediate stone and the translucent more like a wire edge management stone. It works great to remove the wire edge, it does polish the bevel a little better then the washita, but it is hard to see any progress when trying to remove some steel. It does cut of course (the stone becomes black) but very slowly.

Likewise the Washita is slow. David Weaver uses a Washita in a one stone sharpening system, but he relies heavilly on a grinder to keep the hollow as wide as possible. I don't really like to use the grinder that much, it's a noisy and dusty machine. So I use a fine India as a first stone on almost any sharpening job. That stone removes steel quickly and creates a huge wire edge in no time at all.

So, maybe I am understanding something not quite about these oilstones, but this is what I ended up with. I really am not going to revert back to using water on any of my stones, I like the oil too much.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Kees; there's a common statement commonly referred too by users of honing stones; if you start using oil on a stone, you should continue using oil on that stone. There is relevance within that statement to the fact that, if you wanted to change over to water, you would 1st need to leech the stone of existing oil. But there is an opposite argument that can be put forth, that being, the stone may actually perform better with water.

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone. I can only think of 1 from my own experience, and that would be some of the darker Hindostans. Due to their high properties within Iron Oxide, the use of water would turn the stones surface to a Rust Oxide, which is something most would likely want to avoid, as a measure to protect the integrity of the stone itself, and the tool being worked.

Now, returning to the discussion on Ark Stones. As you mentioned from your own experience, Arks are more than likely slow cutters, primarily as they fail to release any cutting slurry to assist to rate of cut. I don't have a great deal of experience with Arks or Wahita, but from my experience with other nat stones oil as a lubricant can be used to slow the rate of cut within any given nat stone due to the inherent viscous film it generates between the 2 surfaces being worked. This Ark stone that was the basis behind me started this thread, is a very slow cutting stone, unsuitable for my needs as a woodworker. I had 2 choices available, 1 was to put the stone aside and let it gather dust through lack of use, or 2, leech the stone of existing oil and trial it with water as the surface lubricant. As you have been following this thread, you would know that I went ahead with leaching the stone of oil, and tested this Ark with water. There was a notable improvement in the cutting performance of this stone, to the level that will see its further within fine honing my woodworking chisels and irons.

I have learnt a great deal from this journey, and hopefully by sharing that experience with other forum members, they will have gained a similar experience.

Appreciate your feedback Kees.

I was hoping for a bit more feedback from other forum members, but that's okay.

regards Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks for the info Stewie.

I am certainly not going to switch to water myself. The oil just has too many benefits (been a waterstone user for a long time...). I found my solution in the fine India as a primary stone.

[Stewie Simpson]

As mentioned previously, I have no intention of buying more honing stones. So that in itself will represent the end of my threads on nat stones. (you can breath easy now gents).

I still have a side hinge sharpening box to make for the Scotch Dalmore Blue. That's a few weeks away from completing, and will represent the last time I post a thread dedicated to making a sharpening stone box..

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks for the info Stewie.

I am certainly not going to switch to water myself. The oil just has too many benefits (been a waterstone user for a long time...). I found my solution in the fine India as a primary stone.

Fully understand Kees; we all need to seek our own journey within the type and method we use our honing stones.

All the best wishes to you and your family over the xmas/ new year period.

Stewie

[Kees Heiden]

Best wishes to you too Stewie, and looking forward to new adventures in 2017