Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 53

Thread: Cabinet Saw or European Slider

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    34

    Cabinet Saw or European Slider

    I have a small shop I built and having completed the construction work I am ready to upgrade from a Bosch 4100 table saw to something with greater precision and capabilities.

    I have been planning to purchase a Sawstop 36" 5hp ICS. But, having read a number of threads about European saws I've begun to wonder if something like a Hammer K3 31x31 might better suit my needs.

    I will use the saw primarily for milling stock, etc. as I prefer to do hand work whenever possible. I would like to be able to dispense with a sliding compound miter saw in the shop because it takes up too much space and produces too much dust (despite a dust hood, etc.) I will be doing some work with plywood panels (cabinets, etc.) but hope to move away from that and primarily focus on hardwood lumber projects when I've finished some home renovation/remodel projects.

    I'm interested in hearing from those of you who have experience with both cabinet saws and European sliders to help me understand the pros and cons, differences in style of work, which does what best, etc. I'd also be interested in advice regarding the value of a longer sliding table as the 31x48 Hammer K3 seems to take up only a bit more space. The features and methods of work I've seen illustrated for the European saws seem inherently safer in some respects but I am unsure if these methods would serve my purposes. I do admire the precision and thoughtful design of the European saws but don't know if they would be right for my purposes. Dust collection is a critical element for me. I want to minimize dust as much as possible.

    I'd like to avoid re-starting the inevitable debate regarding the merits of Sawstop vs other cabinet saws. I've read the numerous threads here and elsewhere on that topic and have made the decision that if I get a cabinet saw it will be a Sawstop.

    I long ago concluded that no matter how careful I am and how methodical I try to be I WILL make a mistake someday that will put me at risk of injury. I have done so in the past despite my best efforts. I am obviously far less competent and careful than many others who have avoided mistakes over lengthy periods and are certain that they can continue to do so in the future. I am not that skilled or diligent. I am imperfect and the additional cost of a safety device is of no consequence to me - particularly in comparison to the potential injuries that can be avoided. I know this single safety device will not forestall all possible accidents and injuries and that I have to remain vigilant but it will remove one type of risk and that is worth it to me.

    Thanks for any information and advice you may have that will help me make the best decision.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    22,494
    Blog Entries
    1
    The eternal question. Cab saw fans will mostly say cab saw. Slider format folks will praise the wonders of the slider. The answer to the format question is easier answered when we know what kind of things you do. Lots of large panel crosscuts? Slider, most definitely. Lots of smaller detailed parts like joinery and the like? Cab saw all the way. It is when it becomes a mixed bag that the strengths or weaknesses of each format start to show. Let's see what the brain-trust has to say . . . .
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Webb View Post
    I long ago concluded that no matter how careful I am and how methodical I try to be I WILL make a mistake someday that will put me at risk of injury.
    Then you need to take up something that doesn't involve power tools. You're ill equipped no matter what you get

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    868
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Then you need to take up something that doesn't involve power tools. You're ill equipped no matter what you get
    Sounds like the words of a man who has concluded HE WILL NEVER make a mistake that will put him at risk of injury...
    Too much to do...Not enough time...life is too short!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,694
    Cabinet saws and Euro sliders each have their strong points and weaknesses. I used the former early on and have been using the latter for a number of years now. I'd be hard pressed to give up the slider at this point. I just plain like the precision and repeatability as well as some of the safety aspects that come with the tool, itself, moving the wood through the cut. There's a continual learning curve for sure, but I enjoy every learning experience that comes my way. The slider and J/P are the complimentary "heart" of my shop. But that's "me"...your needs and desires may be different, so consider all of the angles, costs, benefits and down-sides to both choices before you select what to buy. You only want to do that once!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    34
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Then you need to take up something that doesn't involve power tools. You're ill equipped no matter what you get
    I had hoped to avoid precisely this type of asinine comment that adds nothing of substance to any discussion. But apparently there is no avoiding those, like you, whose idea of achievement is to make what they believe are witty comments on internet forums to puff up their ego by attempting to denigrate others.

    I have been using power tools since grade school. I also engage in many other activities that present much much higher levels of risk of both injury and death - out in the real world and not sitting behind my keyboard. I've been doing these things for 60 years. Unlike you, I've actually learned from life experiences and understand that despite my greatest effort to take every possible precaution I cannot control every element of risk and that human error is inevitable.

    Please do me and others a favor and troll elsewhere. I am interested in information from intelligent people who have something of substance to share. You clearly do not meet that criteria.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Upland CA
    Posts
    5,548
    I had a Felder slider for about 10 years and it was a very nice saw. I kept my Unisaw for dados and other work, and found that when I wasn't doing sheet goods I still preferred the cabinet saw.

    I sold the Felder, and bought a SawStop PCS, which I also like very much. I also kept the Unisaw for dados. It is really nice to have two saws, and I use the SS for most everything.

    Both the slider and the SS have their points, and I found the slider to be very safe, as I left the guard over the blade all the time, set at about one inch for most cuts. In my case, I simply preferred the cabinet saw and got the safest one. I know I could have made various jigs to use on the slider, but I was already set up for a cabinet saw, and saw no reason to change work habits.

    Old dog, new tricks, I guess.

    You will probably like either one. I guess the big question is how much sheet goods do you use? I have a track saw now for sheet goods. Real handy.
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  8. #8
    i was a cabinet saw guy for a few decades... and still am, have a canadian-made General 650 that i'll sell only when i'm dead. a few years ago i got a Martin slider to do large-scale furniture and casework. i'll never go back. i've heard people say that sliders are only good for plywood, and if you build furniture, better to have a cabinet saw. i wouldn't give up my cabinet saw, because there are tasks it excels at that simps aren't suited for the slider, but 97% of my cuts, hardwood or plywood, are done on the slider, with a degree of precision, speed and safety that i never thought possible. YMMV, but i'm definitely sold on having a slider in my shop.

    couple of things to keep in mind (apologies if these are self-evident):

    1) sliders are big. really big. the footprint is huge, and "virtual" footprint to accommodate the sliding action is enormous. plan accordingly, and don't shove a big slider in a tiny shop.

    2) you have options with sliders. the ability to turn on/off the saw right at the operator's position (rather than on the case), "normal" or "two-point" fence systems, digital scales and gauges, parallelogram vs. fixed miter table, etc. if you're buying a new slider, think carefully about each option and determine what makes most sense for you and what you can afford.

    3) for me, one of the best features of having a slider in a furniture shop is the ability to quickly prep rough stock - straight lining and ripping is a breeze. now, of course, having a SLRS would be better, but i don't have one, and i'm not getting one - the slider provides a much faster option than a track saw or router...

    4) different blade types make a huge difference on a slider. use a rip blade for ripping, use a high-tooth crosscut for clean crosscuts. use a high quality plywood blade for hardwood plywood.


    good luck with your decision!

    --- dz

  9. #9
    one more thing i just thought of... ripping on a slider is .... different. it's neither good nor bad, just different. takes practice. to qualify this - ripping WITH THE RIP FENCE is different. ripping with the slider is obviously straightforward, as long as you can parallel the stock via offset fences and clamp, easy as it gets.

    for things such as face frame stock, i find myself ripping just over final size and then bringing the material to run on the planer, on edge, to get to final and a near-polished finish. i'm sure others have better technique and can achieve this directly off the slider rip fence, but i don't yet have that skill.

    bottom line, sliders require a change in technique, learning a new way to use the machine. it's a bit of a dance, but fast, safe and accurate once you learn.

    --- dz
    Last edited by David Zaret; 12-25-2016 at 6:07 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Cabinet saws and Euro sliders each have their strong points and weaknesses. I used the former early on and have been using the latter for a number of years now. I'd be hard pressed to give up the slider at this point. I just plain like the precision and repeatability as well as some of the safety aspects that come with the tool, itself, moving the wood through the cut. There's a continual learning curve for sure, but I enjoy every learning experience that comes my way. The slider and J/P are the complimentary "heart" of my shop. But that's "me"...your needs and desires may be different, so consider all of the angles, costs, benefits and down-sides to both choices before you select what to buy. You only want to do that once!
    Thanks for your response. It appears that the sliders would be clearly superior for panel work and crosscutting and may be more capable of allowing me to eliminate a sliding miter from the shop. What is your perspective on this?

    Do you find the slider to function as well or at least nearly as well for rip cuts in dimensional lumber?

    Do you find a cabinet saw or slider to be more space efficient?

    Did you find the slider to be superior in terms of dust collection?

    Initially I will be using the saw for a good bit of cabinetry involving panel work. I expect that will diminish over time and my work will likely end up being 60/40 or maybe even 70/30 milling lumber/panel work. In that scenario do you find the benefits of a slider to outweigh those of a cabinet saw?

    Thanks for any additional perspective you can add.

  11. #11
    i think i hit on most of your questions.. as for dust collection, the slider is far superior. at least on my martin, the vast majority of the above and under-table dust is caught, unless i'm doing a dust cut which is just messy no matter what you do.

    (a dust cut is taking a tiny amount off a factory edge of a panel to create a reference edge - if you cut enough that you leave a bit of offcut, dust isn't an issue)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
    Posts
    12,298
    I've never used a real European sliding saw. However, I have a Powermatic PM66 cabinet saw and added a Robland (European) sliding table attachment. This gives me, I think, the best of both worlds for my purposes. If I ever decide to make cabinets (unlikely) I'd get a panel saw.

    The Robland is a heavy cast iron table on a very good bearing system. It replaces the left table extension. It's not in the way and the saw is normally just a cabinet saw, but it is oh, so nice for crosscutting and trimming plywood panels. It has a great clamp built in. I bought it used in a benefit auction.

    I have no idea if something like this is available new but if so, it might be another option to consider.

    JKJ

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    West Central Alberta, East of the Rockies - West of the Rest
    Posts
    656
    Russ, I admit I'm not unbiased.
    There are several reputable manufacturers of sliding tablesaws, however I'm only familiar with Felder.
    The sliding table is designed to accept clamps and holddowns to secure even the smallest (or largest) and most delicate pieces and your hands will never be near the blade while performing the cut. Ripping on the slider is a breeze with one extra stop mounted to the sliding table. The "Fritz and Franz" jig helps with narrow rips for edgebanding / rips or to hold odd shaped pieces or to cut tapers - your hands will never be near the blade. The Felder sliding table accepts the Incra miter gauge without modification.
    I have cut many, many boxjoints on my slider.
    Most sliders I'm aware off come either standard or as an option to accept dado blades.
    Working with a slider is different and usually takes time to get used to, don't be fooled by people trying to tell you a slider is only good for sheet good and cabinet construction. You are not supposed to and you don't have to stand in the kickback zone ever when performing a cut.

    Watch theses YouTube videos.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ&t=130s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj4gSMdaaxE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8c9-BGJLeM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X_vd-T3hqk






  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,495
    My $.02... I have a 3hp sawstop PCS, and it's a great machine. But in hindsight, I wish I had bought a slider with 8ft of stroke.

    With 8ft, you can use the fritz and Franz jig and the sliding mechanism for your parallel rip cuts, which gives it a safety advantage over the sawstop. By my estimation, hand-fed rip cuts have the most potential for kickback and for blade contact. The slider keeps your hands away from the blade and your body out of the line of fire for a kickback. But you need the sliding table to have enough stroke to handle your rips.

    And not only does the slider have the safety advantage, it also has more capability (crosscuts without a giant sled, etc).

    Hope that helps. I think the SS is a great innovation and a well made saw, but I wish I knew then what I know now.

  15. #15
    No idea what kind of ww'ing you're doing and I've never used a Hammer or any slider but I have an opinion

    First, a 3HP saw will suffice for vast majority of ww'ers. You'll never need the extra power and if it takes 12" blades, the extra expense.

    As far as a slider, yes, they are handy, but once again, that's a value decision vs. the quantity of work you're doing. If you're not a commercial shop but are blessed with good funding, then go for it. A good sled will suffice. If you're doing a lot of sheet good work then a track saw is a good option.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •