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Thread: dust collection help in small shop

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
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    dust collection help in small shop

    Hello

    I have done a lot of reading on this site, been to all the links, i have a 4 car, witch one car still parks in.

    I have not wood worked in a year, I bought a bunch of stuff last year, life happened, just getting back to it.

    I have a JDS 1.5 HP collector, I had to run a run up and over and drop back down for my table saw, most of my tools are on wheels, so they go a round my TS, there is a trash can lid speerator there and the 4 inch pipe is wye'ed off with gates at each machine

    over the last couple weeks i got my shop together and got the DC hooked up.

    MY DC had the 6inch to 2x 4inch

    I used corrugated drain hose for the runs (it was cheap I was in hurry and my dad was helping)

    I dont have much flow at my tools and the 1 micron bad keeps clogging even with the trashcan separators

    problems

    1. low flow, my over table saw doe not pick up much dust, the super max drum sander leaves some dust,
    2. the separator work on everything but the fine sanding dust
    3. the filter bag clogs really bad

    I started reading here and the links i found, I see that I should have larger hose running like 6 inch all the way to the tools, but then on bills site I read that 6 inch hose on a 1.5 HP collector did not have to the power to stop the hose from clogging so now i'm stuck (i though the 6inch was the way to go for the last few days)

    I assume I need a larger DC, but my entire shop is 110V for a reason. our 400 amp service is nearly full and I don't have the money to upgrade to 600AMP or have another sub panel installed and all the wiring done. lucky all the circuits in the area are 20AMP so that helps

    should i run 6 inch everywhere? if so do I 6 inch gate before my tools or just 4 inch since it has to reduce anyway? (the gate would be directly on the tool so tool > gate > reducer

    should i buy a second DC and put it over by the table saw so i no longer need the up the wall across the ceiling and back down run (the run is about 30 feet total)

    i was going to get the SDD to help with the dust and cloging. but that is $500 i dont mind spending it, the wife is onboard making changes ( i have bad asmtham) going to get a air filter for the shop also (looking at the supermax)

    I just want to spend it right this time
    Last edited by Andrew R Miller; 01-06-2017 at 10:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Is the 30 foot run to the ceiling and back down corrugated drain pipe? That would be problem #1

    The separator is causing some loss but look at changing out the drain pipe first. If you want to try sticking with what you have, which given the 110v limitation you kind of have to, I'd look into converting the bag to the 1 micron canister if possible.

  3. #3
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    [QUOTE=Chris True;2643074]Is the 30 foot run to the ceiling and back down corrugated drain pipe? That would be problem #1

    The separator is causing some loss but look at changing out the drain pipe first. If you want to try sticking with what you have, which given the 110v limitation you kind of have to, I'd look into converting the bag to the 1 micron canister if possible.[/QUOTE
    yes right now it is about 21 feet of the drain pipe and then the rest is the expandable hose

    Do you think a SDD alone with say a wynn replacement (or the JDS can filter) would make an improvement?

    I dont want to say i'm stuck on the SSD (i was going to get the SDDXL so its 6inch in and out) but i also dont want to have to clean the fliter every time i empty the can

    changing the drain pipe.... should i just a a 6inch run? i can get a 25 6inch hose from wynn i think for $100

  4. #4
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    Andrew, have a read of this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...d-XL-questions as your situations are similar. Not sure what corrugated drain pipe is, but the pipe running from your collector or deputy needs to be as smooth as possible and 5-6" diameter would work ok. A trashcan separator is going to create a bigger loss in airflow than a Deputy. Most of the mods I've seen for a 1.5-2HP single stage DC have been to use a Wynn filter as a replacement for the bag, and either a Thein baffle or Dust Deputy for the separation of the dust. This ensures that you don't need to clean the filter frequently. You don't need a Deputy XL for a 1.5HP collector, the standard SDD is fine. Only use flex pipe in very short sections, try and use smooth bore pipe the rest of the way and keep your ducting to a minimum. Even long runs of large, smooth duct are going to reduce the effective suction on a small DC

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Giddings View Post
    Andrew, have a read of this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...d-XL-questions as your situations are similar. Not sure what corrugated drain pipe is, but the pipe running from your collector or deputy needs to be as smooth as possible and 5-6" diameter would work ok. A trashcan separator is going to create a bigger loss in airflow than a Deputy. Most of the mods I've seen for a 1.5-2HP single stage DC have been to use a Wynn filter as a replacement for the bag, and either a Thein baffle or Dust Deputy for the separation of the dust. This ensures that you don't need to clean the filter frequently. You don't need a Deputy XL for a 1.5HP collector, the standard SDD is fine. Only use flex pipe in very short sections, try and use smooth bore pipe the rest of the way and keep your ducting to a minimum. Even long runs of large, smooth duct are going to reduce the effective suction on a small DC

    I will check that tread out, I wanted the XL because my DC has a 6" port (currently has a 6x4x4 wye on it) the JDS does have an 11inch fan on it.

    I dont know if it really needs the 6 inch but I didn't want to take it down to 5 ? plus i figure if i ever upgrade the DC the 6-INCH would be better.... i spoke the SDD people they said the xl should be fine for my DC (as over size is bad too)

    it is rated at 1200 CFM, but i have no way to test the claim, I assume that's with no filter bag and no pipping.

    looking like:
    upgrade main line to 6" smooth $200 ish
    add SDD to get the junk out $500 ish ( i got the 55 gallon cause i didn't wnat ot empty it ever 5 minutes lol)
    add CAN filter to maximize air flow and better filtering ($250 ish? from wynn ? )


    thanks again any input on blast gate or if i need to run the 6 inch all that way to every tool? at least every tool with a 4 inch port

  6. #6
    Reinforcing what Andy said, smooth pipe is MOST important. Your current corrugated pipe is probably throwing away 1/2 your airflow.

    I'd make your main 6" with Y's coming down from the ceiling 3 or 4 feet at which point you transition to 4" metal pipe until close the the tool and make the hookup with a short length of flex. Blast gate either at the 4-6 transition or the 4" metal to flex transition. Try and keep your system fairly compact.

    Might want to reconsider 55 gallon drums or at least don't let it get full. Ever try a lift 55 gallons of chips? My Grizzly 440 has a 35 gallon drum and that sucker is about all I can handle full of chips .

  7. #7
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    I would suggest that you read the Dust Collector article in Wood Magazine March 2008. They tested a number of dust collectors including the JDS 1.5 HP and found it had a max of about 700 cfm. They also address the issue of what is needed to run 6" pipe and answers your questions.

    The article is available if you do a Google search for it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Frank View Post
    I would suggest that you read the Dust Collector article in Wood Magazine March 2008. They tested a number of dust collectors including the JDS 1.5 HP and found it had a max of about 700 cfm. They also address the issue of what is needed to run 6" pipe and answers your questions.

    The article is available if you do a Google search for it.
    they tested the 14040 in that the one i have is 14040J

    The only thing i know for sure is the bottom bag is now plastic in the J (rather than 2 filter bags) I cannot find any spec sheets on the 8 year old model , they didn't list the fan size in the article so not sure if that changed or not

    thank you for the info also seems 6inch will be fine

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris True View Post
    Reinforcing what Andy said, smooth pipe is MOST important. Your current corrugated pipe is probably throwing away 1/2 your airflow.

    I'd make your main 6" with Y's coming down from the ceiling 3 or 4 feet at which point you transition to 4" metal pipe until close the the tool and make the hookup with a short length of flex. Blast gate either at the 4-6 transition or the 4" metal to flex transition. Try and keep your system fairly compact.

    Might want to reconsider 55 gallon drums or at least don't let it get full. Ever try a lift 55 gallons of chips? My Grizzly 440 has a 35 gallon drum and that sucker is about all I can handle full of chips .
    right now my TS, and over TS (both 4 inch) along with my jointer, planer, drum sander, router table, and band saw are in the ceter of the room, I have 4x8 outfeed table on the back of my table saw the tools are all on the right side of the TS

    I would have one run to the miter saw along the back wall, and a 3rd run opposite direction to the sanding area.

    everything of mine but the TS a an miter are easy to move and are on wheels (the TS is on wheels but i HATE moving it :P LOL

    on the 55 gallon, I have notice you loose about 1/4 of the volume because you let them fill all the way up it seems

    maybe I need to tweak my shop arrangement some more?

  10. #10
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    Andrew

    That corrugated pipe is the biggest culprit. Your friction losses are very high with corrugated pipe.

    You're also only trying to hook up to one machine at a time correct? Meaning you don't have multiple drop that are open.
    Make sure that the separator is tight, it too could be a source of leakage.

    I basically have the same DC you do, and at times it has a 20"-30' flexible hose hooked up between it and a machine. It's not ideal by any means, but certainly much better than what you are experiencing. Your DC should be able to serve a table saw.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Miller View Post
    I assume I need a larger DC, but my entire shop is 110V for a reason. our 400 amp service is nearly full and I don't have the money to upgrade to 600AMP or have another sub panel installed and all the wiring done. lucky all the circuits in the area are 20AMP so that helps
    Andrew,

    I scanned through the responses but didn't noticed if this is addressed. I think a larger 220v cyclone would fix things. I put a 5hp cyclone in my shop and ran 6" PVC ducts to 5 drops, branching to multiple 4" close to some tools. With a cyclone almost everything goes in the bin and the sub-micron filters are nowhere near clogged. (in use since 2015)

    Two ideas about the electrical that I can think of at the moment (while stuck here on a Sunday morning with ice on the roads!) Note that I am not an electrician (except in Mexico where anyone with wire cutters and a screwdriver is an electrician.)

    ONE:
    You say you have a 400 amp panel which is nearly full. Unless you are running factory (!) in your back room I doubt your are drawing anything close to 400 amps even with almost all the heavy current devices running at the same time (electric heat, water heater, clothes dryer, hot tub, all the lights, oven, your electric kiln....). It would be simple to turn everything on and measure the current for the whole house with a clamp-on amp meter. The circuit served by a given breaker almost never pulls anything close to the capacity of the breaker.

    A 600 amp panel would cost a lot of money to install and switch over all the circuits but it is probably not needed. However, it should not cost that much to install a small sub panel. All it would take is a several breakers, a cheap panel, a few lengths of wire, and a receptacle for the DC. You say the 400 amp service is "nearly" full. Do you have two empty breaker spaces or can you double up on a couple of low-use circuits to free up enough space for an additional 220v breaker?

    Unless garage is a long way from the panel (usually not), adding a sub panel might be easy and not cost as much as you think.

    ANOTHER:
    This might be surprisingly reasonable in cost - add a panel between the meter and the house. This panel can feed both the house (treat the existing house panel as a subpanel), and feed the shop. This breaker to the shop could be sized to feed just the DC for now, or better, feed a sub panel in the garage for future expansion. (the shop subpanel could be added later) Perhaps consult with an electrician to see if this would work for you. This method in no way affects the power to the existing panel in the house.

    My house has a 200 amp panel. I wanted to run 100 amps to the new shop I was building. Rather than feeding 100 amps from the house panel I swapped my meter base for an outside meter base which had an integrated breaker panel. The meter base panel has a 200 amp main disconnect breaker, a 200 amp breaker to feed the house and a 100 amp breaker to feed the shop. This solved the problem of messing with the main panel in the house. Even with paying the utility guy to pull the fuse at the pole to disconnect my transformer and wire in the new meter base I spent less than $200 on the conversion.

    I built my shop 250' from the meter so I ran copper underground which WAS expensive. If your house is like many with the breaker box in the garage and the meter not far outside, it should be pretty cheap. Then you would have plenty of power for the DC and any other 220v circuits you might want in the future. My shop has a number of 220v circuits feeding 2, 3, and 5hp motors, a heat pump, small machine shop, weld shop, a feeder to the barn, etc. The power is solid and isolated from the house. No lights dim.

    Just an idea. Consult with a local electrician to see if this would work for you and fit within your local codes.

    JKJ

  12. #12
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    Have you thought about building a portable DC unit since you such a large space? Rather than try to pull suction on 30 feet of pipe with a small motor you roll up a portable cart with a short hose and connect to the tool you are using.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    Andrew,

    I scanned through the responses but didn't noticed if this is addressed. I think a larger 220v cyclone would fix things. I put a 5hp cyclone in my shop and ran 6" PVC ducts to 5 drops, branching to multiple 4" close to some tools. With a cyclone almost everything goes in the bin and the sub-micron filters are nowhere near clogged. (in use since 2015)

    Two ideas about the electrical that I can think of at the moment (while stuck here on a Sunday morning with ice on the roads!) Note that I am not an electrician (except in Mexico where anyone with wire cutters and a screwdriver is an electrician.)

    ONE:
    You say you have a 400 amp panel which is nearly full. Unless you are running factory (!) in your back room I doubt your are drawing anything close to 400 amps even with almost all the heavy current devices running at the same time (electric heat, water heater, clothes dryer, hot tub, all the lights, oven, your electric kiln....). It would be simple to turn everything on and measure the current for the whole house with a clamp-on amp meter. The circuit served by a given breaker almost never pulls anything close to the capacity of the breaker.

    A 600 amp panel would cost a lot of money to install and switch over all the circuits but it is probably not needed. However, it should not cost that much to install a small sub panel. All it would take is a several breakers, a cheap panel, a few lengths of wire, and a receptacle for the DC. You say the 400 amp service is "nearly" full. Do you have two empty breaker spaces or can you double up on a couple of low-use circuits to free up enough space for an additional 220v breaker?

    Unless garage is a long way from the panel (usually not), adding a sub panel might be easy and not cost as much as you think.

    ANOTHER:
    This might be surprisingly reasonable in cost - add a panel between the meter and the house. This panel can feed both the house (treat the existing house panel as a subpanel), and feed the shop. This breaker to the shop could be sized to feed just the DC for now, or better, feed a sub panel in the garage for future expansion. (the shop subpanel could be added later) Perhaps consult with an electrician to see if this would work for you. This method in no way affects the power to the existing panel in the house.

    My house has a 200 amp panel. I wanted to run 100 amps to the new shop I was building. Rather than feeding 100 amps from the house panel I swapped my meter base for an outside meter base which had an integrated breaker panel. The meter base panel has a 200 amp main disconnect breaker, a 200 amp breaker to feed the house and a 100 amp breaker to feed the shop. This solved the problem of messing with the main panel in the house. Even with paying the utility guy to pull the fuse at the pole to disconnect my transformer and wire in the new meter base I spent less than $200 on the conversion.

    I built my shop 250' from the meter so I ran copper underground which WAS expensive. If your house is like many with the breaker box in the garage and the meter not far outside, it should be pretty cheap. Then you would have plenty of power for the DC and any other 220v circuits you might want in the future. My shop has a number of 220v circuits feeding 2, 3, and 5hp motors, a heat pump, small machine shop, weld shop, a feeder to the barn, etc. The power is solid and isolated from the house. No lights dim.

    Just an idea. Consult with a local electrician to see if this would work for you and fit within your local codes.

    JKJ
    thanks for the info here is my set up

    I have 2x 200amp panels, (they are in my shop) one 100amp goes to Sub on the other side of the house. one of them is a baseboard heater (for the shop on a 220 20AMP line, could i maybe tap into this? im sure i would have to run larger wire, but don't think i would need a permit to this?

    I have I think 1 double space open in all of that.

    (my house 100% electric)
    i have one 100amp to the Geo-thermal
    i have one 100amp to the pool heater
    i have one 100amp to the back up electric heat (never used really)
    i have one 60amp to the pool room heater (needs replaced so we never use it) (+20amp for the blower it connects too)
    i have a 20 amp to the pool pump
    I have 2 hot water heaters both 60 amp
    40 amp to the stove
    60 amp to the barn
    30 amp to dryer

    I dont really plan to add anything else that's 220v volt I know i could cut faster and such but i just bought all this stuff over the last couple years im looking at a jointer upgrade but that will stay 110v

    if i could upgrade the baseboard heat to 40 or 60 amp that would be the easiest thing since it is already in the room, I though about getting rid of that baseboard heat anyway and getting something that could jut plug into 110/20AMP then i would only need a 30amp, and i'm sure the wire in there could support that ?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Cutler View Post
    Andrew

    That corrugated pipe is the biggest culprit. Your friction losses are very high with corrugated pipe.

    You're also only trying to hook up to one machine at a time correct? Meaning you don't have multiple drop that are open.
    Make sure that the separator is tight, it too could be a source of leakage.

    I basically have the same DC you do, and at times it has a 20"-30' flexible hose hooked up between it and a machine. It's not ideal by any means, but certainly much better than what you are experiencing. Your DC should be able to serve a table saw.
    I have 2 seperator one on each 4 inch branch I have checked them when running and i could not hear any major air leaks

    I plan to replace the piping ASAP


    Quote Originally Posted by lee cox View Post
    Have you thought about building a portable DC unit since you such a large space? Rather than try to pull suction on 30 feet of pipe with a small motor you roll up a portable cart with a short hose and connect to the tool you are using.
    I had a 50 foot colaspable flex on it and moved it around for a while, but i got dizzy and wasted so much time, I wouldn't remember to move it and get chips/dust everywhere lol

  15. #15
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    Elgin, TX
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    I would think a 50 foot collapsible hose would kill your performance. You need to keep the hose as short as possible.

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