A thread to share 'workbench principles' from experience.

[Robert Engel]

Changing the guide ear won't solve your problem. It's purpose is to stop the vise face turning when you move it in or out. If the vise face edge clears the shoulder enough it won't then catch on the shoulder even with its angular movement. It is a simple matter to modify your vise face to solve your problem. As your apron does not look overly deep you may have to make a new one to accommodate the mod but not a big problem. I will have to take a picture of mine to explain it.

Thanks. To be clear, I'm talking about the vise racking vertically, not horizontally. I think if the ear was tighter in the slot formed by the top of the stretcher/bottom of spacer board it would help.

[Karl Andersson]

OK, I would also like to see/ hear more about your vise design. Maybe we need a new thread on shoulder vises, but then again, this is all part of "workbench principles", even if we're not speaking French about our benches.

I have needed to fine-tune my shoulder vise "clamping board" since it was built; it tends to bind against the bench extension on the left and the LV screw's head has never fit well in the bracket, so it grabs and spins the board. My ear is just an extension of the lower left end of the clamping board, so I could fix the spin by screwing a board to the underside of the bench, enclosing the ear and also filing the end of the screw. I'd like to see how your ear is shaped and spaced within its slot

here's mine when new- it's just dirtier now
bench05.JPG

BTW, regarding the allthread issue, that nut seen to the left of the screw started being about flush with the outside edge of the bench - now it's about 3/16 inset due to the wood compressing. I'm going to inset a hard maple bearing plate...soon.

[William Fretwell]

[*]I have seen a lot of folks make these massive (top to bottom, not side to side) chops for their twin-screw vises. I want to give my thoughts on that for a second. The pressure in a vise chop comes from the screw. There is going to be "X" amount of pressure, regardless of how big the chop is. That pressure, "X", is spread out across the face of the chop. A larger chop has less pressure per square inch than a narrower chop, all other factors (the screw pressure) being equal. My twin-screw vise will have a chop 5 1/4" tall from top to bottom- the same as the thickness of my bench top. I started to make a piece that extended down from the bench top, and having this massive 12" tall end vise, but really what I gain in added area, I lose by spreading the clamping force out over a larger area. There is certainly merit to a big chop- like friction to hold something you are sawing a tenon in from the side of the vise, but again, that friction is also coming from the lbs/in2 of the screw. Hopefully this makes sense to someone out there. It's hard to explain without using my hands. :-)[/LIST]
.

The force exerted by the screws is exerted over the area of the workpeice being held. A deeper chop gives a mechanical advantage in holding the workpeice. Yes for the same workpeice a deeper chop exerts less pressure per square inch but the coefficient of static friction is very high so the reduced pressure matters not. The mechanical advantage to resist twisting and movement of the workpeice is huge. So yes build a big chop but remember if the work does not fill the chop depth then wracking will ensue.

[Matthew Hills]

My few points:

• wider benches are better for assembly and collecting clutter (my 30" bench has spent most of its service life with back 12" holding excess lumber)
• expect to be flexible -- your usage probably won't match your
• Front vise and planing stops are my most-used features; holdfasts sometimes; end vise and dog holes rarely
• Planing stops in the dog holes are great. Make your own or get the Veritas ( http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...37&cat=1,41182 )
• leather (or crubber?) in the vise chop is a nice boost to the vise.
• look for tool storage to be quickly accessible from bench for common items (chisels, mallets, etc.)
• nice to have some sharpening close to bench. (strop clamped in end vise is a decent start)

Matt

[Hasin Haroon]

Great responses. I'd like to share a more general principle that I've come to realise would work well for me - The bench should be a working surface, not a surface that gets cluttered or has piles of unfinished projects on it. A very wide bench or a bench with tool storage for me would end up being that way because I'm lazy and I will end up going the route of most apparent convenience. So a narrower bench with no tool tray/planing stop forces me to organise the rest of my shop, and to keep it organised....

[Chris Hachet]

What I've learned after a year of use on my "hybrid top Roubo" http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241141-Hybrid-top-Roubo :

The leg vise with Veritas screw and Benchcrafted Crisscross works beautifully. I would probably spring for the "Glide" doing it again, though. The extra cost is not much, percentage-wise, and it will get used thousands of times over the years.

5 ft. long is working ok for me, though I might go up to 6 if I had to do it again. 24" wide works well, too.

Biggest lesson: I used a pre-fabbed BallyBlock laminated maple top. The laminations do not keep a constant grain direction, so the top cannot be hand planed easily. I'd go with gluing up my own, properly-oriented top next time.

My bench is 5 foot with a criss cross and a bench crafted classic...works fabulously.

[Chris Hachet]

I'd love a small heavy bench for joinery (scandi) and a planing beam for everything else, had I the space. I find that what has become more critical in my work is flatness directly under the area of planing, I made a planing beam for kumiko but end up using it for everything critical and thin.

A planing beam seems like it would be very efficient, I agree with the concept of a multi bench approach.

[William Fretwell]

Thanks. To be clear, I'm talking about the vise racking vertically, not horizontally. I think if the ear was tighter in the slot formed by the top of the stretcher/bottom of spacer board it would help.

The horizontal wracking is a good thing so you can hold tapered pieces! The vertical wracking will not be influenced by the tab however the wracking may influence the tab to break off!

When you move the vise face in or out it twists the face right or left just slightly but enough to wedge or jam the face edge against the shoulder if it touches. The corners of the vise face next to the shoulder should be rounded so they don't touch. The friction of the tab is trivial and the tab edges can be rounded as well.

See my reply to the post below for more.

[ken hatch]

My French-English bench in use:





Everyone has different needs....This one is as close to perfect as can be. What would/will I change on the next build? I expect nothing except instead of a "split fill" I may just have the split set at the correct width to hold saws and squares because it is never removed nor used for a stop.

ken

[William Fretwell]

Fretwell's modification shoulder face.

OK, I would also like to see/ hear more about your vise design. Maybe we need a new thread on shoulder vises, but then again, this is all part of "workbench principles", even if we're not speaking French about our benches.

I have needed to fine-tune my shoulder vise "clamping board" since it was built; it tends to bind against the bench extension on the left and the LV screw's head has never fit well in the bracket, so it grabs and spins the board. My ear is just an extension of the lower left end of the clamping board, so I could fix the spin by screwing a board to the underside of the bench, enclosing the ear and also filing the end of the screw. I'd like to see how your ear is shaped and spaced within its slot

here's mine when new- it's just dirtier now
bench05.JPG

BTW, regarding the allthread issue, that nut seen to the left of the screw started being about flush with the outside edge of the bench - now it's about 3/16 inset due to the wood compressing. I'm going to inset a hard maple bearing plate...soon.

Yes you should enclose the tab with a board. The end of the screw is a loose fit, the end does nothing, the shoulder pushes. If it is sinking into the back of the face then discard it and use a harder wood. While you are at it you can add my modification. I will describe it and add a photo later.

Now is later,
shouder vice.jpg

Fretwell's modification:

To stop vertical wracking holding a small piece the same size as the work below the screw keeps the face vertical but it falls out each time the piece is moved.

I added a 3/8" inch dado starting 1/2" from the bottom of the vise face. The dado is 3/8" deep, my vise face is 7/8" thick. I made a series of L shaped (NOT 'T' SHAPED) inserts that slide in with about an inch projecting UP the vise face from the dado. I made 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and 1" to start. There is NO force on the dado insert.

They don't fall out at all but they can't fall with even several turns of the screw. They solve the wracking problem. Now you will say I've created a new problem as the top and bottom of the vise face are fixed and the screw pressure in the middle will break the vise face.

The reality is the mount is quite large spreading the force over a large area. Even if the insert is 2" below the screw centre it would require an enormous force to break.

Now my apron is 5" deep. If your apron in 4" deep I would add an inch to the bottom of the vise face so the dado is below your apron. This will keep your full clamping surface. The L shape will reach up to the bottom edge of the apron when required.

The advantage of a deep apron is the inserts still work with sizes that don't match but are close.

This modification is most useful in improving the performance of the shoulder vise. Use a good strong hard wood and in an hour you can have a new vise face with inserts! You can even hook a smaller insert onto an installed larger one to expand the range!

My end vise modification is substantial and has many ramifications for work position, end vise performance and leg design but will need a thread of it's own sometime.

[Brian Holcombe]

Those shoulder bolts drove me nuts, once you fix it from crushing the side grain, you'll pull the threads out of the bench. Every single vintage scandi bench I've come across has that area damaged.

Here is my fix;

[Chris Hachet]

If I was to build another I would put the leg vise at the other end So I could clamp both left and right handed. I would also and put more drawers under the top for more storage. I like every thing that is used at the bench right there. I don't want to have to walk someplace else to get it. If the bench just has a shelf then it just fills up with clutter. I like a larger top because it make using 24 inch Bessy clamps much easier.

Attachment 351553 Attachment 351554Attachment 351555 Attachment 351556

I love your work bench, I am a sucker for a nice Scandi style bench.

[Chris Hachet]

Those shoulder bolts drove me nuts, once you fix it from crushing the side grain, you'll pull the threads out of the bench. Every single vintage scandi bench I've come across has that area damaged.

Here is my fix;

Japanese
Love the smoothing plane...and nice fix....

[William Fretwell]

That's very elegant Brian. It gives you a larger area to pull against. You do loose 1 & 1/2 inches of mechanical advantage compared to a threaded rod right at the edge of the shoulder.
I used a whopping 1/2" threaded rod with large washers. The rear nut and washer is buried way back in the bench. I used black walnut so I hope it does not pull through some day!
I also minimised the shoulder board by recessing the hardware into the arm. When my shoulder vise is fully open the back of the face is exactly flush with the arm. I had to build out the arm a little just where needed but not at the threaded bolt.
This kept my shoulder board as short as possible to save wood both there and the bench end (very short on my wood!).

To gain as much mechanical advantage as possible I kept the rod very close to the shoulder edge and made the vise face a little larger away from the shoulder. Having a deep apron and vise face increases the coefficient of static friction enormously so you actually use less brute force. Tucking your board into the shoulder also helps.

One more thing: When the shoulder vise is fully 'IN' it is 1/8" short of touching the apron. This was very deliberate as my engineer son (hope he does not read this) likes to stress things. I could see him stressing the shoulder 'just to see' what happens! I think it less likely with a workpeice involved. The reality is big screw threads can exert an enormous force when cranked. You can absolutely destroy any shoulder vise if you wish as the thread is so much bigger and has a large mechanical advantage. Used properly it should last a very long time but old stuff will inevitably get subjected to abuse over the years. Actually not having too large a handle on the vise may be a very good idea, especially in schools and colleges.

[Brian Holcombe]

Japanese
Love the smoothing plane...and nice fix....

Thank you!

That's very elegant Brian. It gives you a larger area to pull against. You do loose 1 & 1/2 inches of mechanical advantage compared to a threaded rod right at the edge of the shoulder.
I used a whopping 1/2" threaded rod with large washers. The rear nut and washer is buried way back in the bench. I used black walnut so I hope it does not pull through some day!
I also minimised the shoulder board by recessing the hardware into the arm. When my shoulder vise is fully open the back of the face is exactly flush with the arm. I had to build out the arm a little just where needed but not at the threaded bolt.
This kept my shoulder board as short as possible to save wood both there and the bench end (very short on my wood!).

To gain as much mechanical advantage as possible I kept the rod very close to the shoulder edge and made the vise face a little larger away from the shoulder. Having a deep apron and vise face increases the coefficient of static friction enormously so you actually use less brute force. Tucking your board into the shoulder also helps.

Well....more like 1/2", since the centerline of the bolt is at least 1/4" from the edge (mine was more) and the centerline of the gooseneck is about 3/4" from the edge.

That is a great idea to inset the hardware, I should have done so as well. And also, I could have cut down on the throat opening considerably, since I use maybe 4" max, and I probably have more like 6". Typically I use up to 3", so if i were building it for that I could have minimized the leverage even more so.