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Thread: So 40 years in, I finally know how to sharpen my tools.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Patrick, curious what are your thoughts on the 1k Shapton vs 1k Chosera? I use the 1k cho and enjoy the feeling of the stone but find it dishes quickly.
    I own the 1K Shapton and have only used the 1K Cho a couple times. The 1K Cho is much more to my preference because it provides tactile feedback that give you useful information about what's happening with the edge. It appears that there's no free lunch, though: In my experience hard and dish-resistant stones like the Shapton Pro 1K and the Sigma Power Hard 1K don't provide much (any?) feel. Stones that do provide good feel (Cho 1K, Bester 1200, Sigma Select II 1000, Sigma Select II 1200) tend to be softer and more dishing-prone. For that matter the diamond pastes that I use on steel plates for really nasty steels don't provide any feedback at all.

    My personal favorites mid-grit synthetics are the Bester 1200 and the Sigma 1200, depending on the steel. The only reason I don't list the Cho is because their pricing offends even my sensibilities, and that's really saying something. Magnesia stones do provide a very characteristic "feel" above and beyond the feedback that I referenced above, though, so I understand why people fall in love with those stones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    At Kez this year a lot if guys were using the Shapton 5k, I think a laminated iron really helps that stone to perform. I am also considering that to replace my cho 3k.
    I'd suggest borrowing one first if you can (I'd be happy to mail you mine if you want) as the 5K has a fairly unique feel even for a Shapton and can be polarizing. See comments earlier in the thread about load-up. I like it, though I like the Sigma Power 6K even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I have the Snow White 8k and I like that stone, stays flat enough that I can leap to naturals without issue.
    Yeah, the Snow White is a nice stone, and quite a bargain by Naniwa's standards. I bought one a while back to see what everybody was so excited about, and it lived up to the hype. Great feel, fast cutting. I also bought it to try to figure out how they get results that good with such a coarse nominal particle size, but I still don't understand that.

    I think that including a polisher into a discussion of dishing in mid-grit stones is potentially misleading, because it's fundamentally easier to make a dish-resistant 8K stone than it is to make a dish-resistant 1K one. Consider the following simplified mental model of how waterstones work:

    In order to cut quickly a waterstone sheds worn grit. To do so the waterstone must release the surface "layer" of grit in no more time than it takes the steel to dull that layer's exposed cutting points. Because wear happens at the points, it takes (very) roughly the same amount of time for the surface layer's particles to wear out, regardless of grit, so all stones with similar abrasive and target steels will shed layers at about the same rate. The thickness of a layer is proportional to the abrasive particle size and inversely proportional to grit.

    If you accept that model, then the obvious conclusion is that a #1000 stone will dish 8X as fast as a #8000 stone, all else being equal. I don't think the reality is quite that "linear", but it's certainly true that coarser stones dish faster than finer ones.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-15-2017 at 2:05 AM.

  2. #32
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    Stewie,

    Had you written your reply to me as your first reply to this discussion, I would have been nodding my head in complete agreement. As opposed to your first post that had me shaking my head thinking why would anyone take anything seriously from such a self-important bag of wind. Your reply to me was cogent, civil, and still direct without being insulting. Exactly the kind of commentary that benefits us all.

    All of us have our easy buttons that can trigger us to respond perhaps a lititle more harshly that we would like. My compliments for your response to me and best wishes.

    Many Kind Regards . . . Allen
    Last edited by allen long; 01-15-2017 at 2:07 AM.
    No, the sky is not falling - just chunks of it are.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.

    Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.



    Stewie;
    Stewie, On a lighter note.......what's that little box with the slits on the back of your bench?
    Life's too short to use old sandpaper.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    I own the 1K Shapton and have only used the 1K Cho a couple times. The 1K Cho is much more to my preference because it provides tactile feedback that give you useful information about what's happening with the edge. It appears that there's no free lunch, though: In my experience hard and dish-resistant stones like the Shapton Pro 1K and the Sigma Power Hard 1K don't provide much (any?) feel. Stones that do provide good feel (Cho 1K, Bester 1200, Sigma Select II 1000, Sigma Select II 1200) tend to be softer and more dishing-prone. For that matter the diamond pastes that I use on steel plates for really nasty steels don't provide any feedback at all.

    My personal favorites mid-grit synthetics are the Bester 1200 and the Sigma 1200, depending on the steel. The only reason I don't list the Cho is because their pricing offends even my sensibilities, and that's really saying something. Magnesia stones do provide a very characteristic "feel" above and beyond the feedback that I referenced above, though, so I understand why people fall in love with those stones.



    I'd suggest borrowing one first if you can (I'd be happy to mail you mine if you want) as the 5K has a fairly unique feel even for a Shapton and can be polarizing. See comments earlier in the thread about load-up. I like it, though I like the Sigma Power 6K even more.



    Yeah, the Snow White is a nice stone, and quite a bargain by Naniwa's standards. I bought one a while back to see what everybody was so excited about, and it lived up to the hype. Great feel, fast cutting. I also bought it to try to figure out how they get results that good with such a coarse nominal particle size, but I still don't understand that.

    I think that including a polisher into a discussion of dishing in mid-grit stones is potentially misleading, because it's fundamentally easier to make a dish-resistant 8K stone than it is to make a dish-resistant 1K one. Consider the following simplified mental model of how waterstones work:

    In order to cut quickly a waterstone sheds worn grit. To do so the waterstone must release the surface "layer" of grit in no more time than it takes the steel to dull that layer's exposed cutting points. Because wear happens at the points, it takes (very) roughly the same amount of time for the surface layer's particles to wear out, regardless of grit, so all stones with similar abrasive and target steels will shed layers at about the same rate. The thickness of a layer is proportional to the abrasive particle size and inversely proportional to grit.

    If you accept that model, then the obvious conclusion is that a #1000 stone will dish 8X as fast as a #8000 stone, all else being equal. I don't think the reality is quite that "linear", but it's certainly true that coarser stones dish faster than finer ones.

    Thanks Patrick, I very much appreciate the detailed reply. I actually use the cho's now as my go-to for cambered edges, as even though I flatten them regularly they become dished pretty quickly. The 3k cho is a really great stone, providing a nice finish in addition to other aspects.

    I may take you up on that WRT the 5k stone, thank you for your generous offer.

    On a separate note;

    I have a Shapton 320 stone and well..,,it's good that I do not sharpen near open windows as that stone may well take flight if that were the case, but I've avoided letting that shape my opinion of the brand, given that some of my fellow Kez contestants seemed to prefer them.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  5. #35
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    Certainly in the western world sharpening stones were largely non shedding oil stones. When you built up a slurry (which took a while) you kept it and worked with it to add an element of polishing.
    Todays most popular non shedding stones are diamond plates, these are flushed frequently to keep cutting. Clearly diamond sharpening can polish, just look at your wife's ring! It is possible then to just use diamonds all the way through but we don't do that.
    Water stones make the 'polishing' easier and faster but at a higher cost. Time is money so pick one.

    Old craftsmen did manage to sharpen their blades, their steel was perhaps a bit softer and took longer but they did it. If they had today's sharpening systems would they say "at last I can sharpen", I doubt it. More likely they would say "great now I can spend an extra half an hour in bed"

  6. #36
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    I use pretty much all media, different blades require it. I like oil stones in a general way, I like them quite a lot, I use them for HC steels, they stay flat (for the most part) with light touchup now and again.

    Natural water stones, they basically cut anything that an oil stone will cut, and I use those as finishers. I've chosen my tool steel, for the most part, with natural stones in mind.

    Ceramic water stones, great for cutting alloyed steels and HC steels very quickly. As voiced in my above complaint, they go out of flat far quicker than natural stones or oil stones (natural and synthetic).

    Diamonds, especially diamond paste, fantastic abrasive which cuts incredibly fast. They load up into the soft iron on laminated blades, and so I do not use them beyond grinding the handful of full steel blades that I have.

    No need to discard the old for the new, or debate which has merit and which does not. Learn to use and put into use all of the above as there are many situations in which you'll find you have the best abrasive for the need at hand.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  7. #37
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    Currently all the water in my shop is frozen. If something needs to be sharpened it has to be done on oilstones.

    Not sure my wife would put up with me bringing my water stones in the house to touch up a few blades.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.

    Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.



    Stewie;
    The problem, of course, is that comments like this can make people gun shy about sharing their own successes. I use a Viel belt grinder for initial shaping and grinding, and polish on a 10,000 Japanese stone. I get great edges. I would love to do it using a more traditional way, but

    1) why? It works well. And
    2) if I use stones, my hands are screwed for the rest of the day, and most of the next.

    Of course, I always hesitate to post anything like this. I mean, who uses belt grinders to sharpen?
    Paul

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Glenn View Post
    Stewie, On a lighter note.......what's that little box with the slits on the back of your bench?
    That's a twin outlet of 240 volt Aussie power.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Gillard View Post
    That's a twin outlet of 240 volt Aussie power.
    I like the switches on the outlets that seems to be the rule for British and Aussie electrical wiring.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    I like the switches on the outlets that seems to be the rule for British and Aussie electrical wiring.

    jtk
    Why, you'd just, switch them on anyway. They had them in Ireland and I thought they were annoying.

  12. #42
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    If it only takes forty years to learn the trick, I only have a couple more decades in the hobby to learn the skill. Glad you like your stones as they are highly regarded in the sharpening arena. You give us all hope.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Riddle View Post
    If it only takes forty years to learn the trick, I only have a couple more decades in the hobby to learn the skill. Glad you like your stones as they are highly regarded in the sharpening arena. You give us all hope.
    Maybe it just took me forty years to get the stones to buy the stones ...

  14. #44
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    That's because they have real electricity in them, the more substantial plug is harder to plug in and out making the switch convenient.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    On a separate note;

    I have a Shapton 320 stone and well..,,it's good that I do not sharpen near open windows as that stone may well take flight if that were the case, but I've avoided letting that shape my opinion of the brand, given that some of my fellow Kez contestants seemed to prefer them.
    Yeah, the 320 isn't my favorite stone either. As I said in another reply to the OP, that's a *very* hard stone for such a coarse grit, and I'm not much enamored of the resulting feel and lack of speed on higher-alloy steels. The interesting thing is that the #220 is almost the opposite. Shapton appear to have made them that way on purpose though, as they recommend the #220 for HSS and the #320 for others (scroll to the bottom of the chart under "Other tools and special steels").

    Shaptons are very different from most other waterstones in that they're basically blocks of molded plastic mixed with abrasive (a.k.a. "resinoid"). They're not porous beyond the immediate surface layer, which is both a strength ("splash and go") and a weakness (weird feel compared clay, ceramic, or magnesia synthetics or JNats). I don't find it surprising that competent woodworkers have wildly divergent opinions about them, as they're pretty nontraditional and polarizing by nature.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-16-2017 at 8:41 PM.

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