Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 97

Thread: So 40 years in, I finally know how to sharpen my tools.

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Hill View Post

    Have we forgotten that in ancient times carpenters were not cabinetmakers? They took had different standards of sharp. Have we forgotten that in the days of old, they had oil stones in Europe and waterstones in Asia?
    Workers in Europe have had both water stones and oil stones for millennia. It sounds like you have never done any research on this subject.

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Workers in Europe have had both water stones and oil stones for millennia. It sounds like you have never done any research on this subject.
    Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I didn't know that. My point is still valid.

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    2,474
    Brian- thanks for that detailed explanation. I get it now- it actually makes sense to me.

    But wow, that's pretty amazing.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
    Posts
    1,502
    Giving this more thought, especially the idea you only flatten the back of a western plane blade once. My bevel up blades at 38 degrees develop a roughness on the back directly behind the edge. This is clearly visible when working hardwoods. It means you need to flatten the back on a fine stone each time you sharpen the blade for a very fine edge. My bevel down blades function just with sharpening the bevel and burr removal on the flat.
    The conclusion; bevel up blades are more work, not just because they are thicker but the backs do require constant attention.
    Any one else reached the same conclusion?

    I've seen the odd post with people using a ruler trick to add a small micro bevel to the back of the bevel up blade. Is this an attempt to remove the 'rough edge' I've described? It does seem counter productive as it would seem to encourage more 'roughness' to develop.
    Last edited by William Fretwell; 01-18-2017 at 1:59 PM.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    7,252
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zellers View Post
    Brian- thanks for that detailed explanation. I get it now- it actually makes sense to me.

    But wow, that's pretty amazing.
    Anytime! It was a daunting process when I first got into Japanese tools, but I've since found it enjoyable.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
    Posts
    1,502
    Having no Japanese plane blades does this mean they expect to work both sides of the blade routinely? Given the 'roughness' on my bevel up blades behind the edge on the flat that requires work are we fooling ourselves with the big flat back?
    I can see flattening a chisel back once but my bevel up plane blade backs do require constant attention and the big flat back makes that more difficult.
    So if a Japanese plane is in my future do I go Jack or Smoother?

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    7,252
    Blog Entries
    7
    Hira Kanna (smoother) would be the place most people start, also where most see the majority of the benefit. The other parts of your post, I sort understand what you're saying, but a bit confused?
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
    Posts
    1,502
    Lets see if I can clarify a bit. Both sides of an edge should be 'flat' at the very edge for optimal cutting. It was suggested that some of LV backs are remarkably flat at purchase (grey flat) and that 'polishing' will be detrimental. This ties in with the convention of finishing the back of a plane blade once. My bevel down blades fit this model but my bevel up blades do not, they develop a pitting roughness immediately behind the edge on the flat side. This detracts from the achievable edge.

    Maintaining the flat side frequently becomes essential beyond burr removal. This is a lot of work due to the large area to maintain.

    I wonder if others have this issue with bevel up (38 degree) blades. I also wonder if the Japanese plane blade with it's much smaller back area is a solution to this issue.
    Last edited by William Fretwell; 01-18-2017 at 4:49 PM.

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    7,252
    Blog Entries
    7
    I'm not so certain that it is a solution to that, but I've enjoyed the fact that there is a hollow and an iron which can be worked by tapping out rather than having to work the back to the degree required to flatten many of my western plane blades.

    I would imagine one fix is to grind the edge back at each honing (bevel up)

    I always hone away the wear bevel, in my case I'm usually doing so with a 1k stone.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Austin Texas
    Posts
    1,957
    I'm not sure I understand something William - Are you saying that it is your belief that the non bevel side of BD irons basically only require work on a stone once and then remain in a useable shape from that point on? And that the non bevel sides of your our BU irons require work every sharpening session due to some noticed pitting roughness? I have always worked the non bevel side (small portion near to the cutting edge only) every sharpening session on all (BD or BU) of my plane irons, but then again I have never looked at any blade through any type of magnification so I could be all wrong.
    David

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I'm not so certain that it is a solution to that, but I've enjoyed the fact that there is a hollow and an iron which can be worked by tapping out rather than having to work the back to the degree required to flatten many of my western plane blades.

    I would imagine one fix is to grind the edge back at each honing (bevel up)

    I always hone away the wear bevel, in my case I'm usually doing so with a 1k stone.
    Hi Brian, I don't see any advantage to the tapping out process. I do however see the potential advantage of a hollow back. It seems the tapping out is a process invented from the necessity dictated by the hollow back. Certainly, if there were no hollow back then there would be no tapping out. Tapping out also seems very tedious and finicky and much more difficult than honing the bevel and back alone. certainly some western users would have invented the same process themselves if it were advantageous. God only knows how many forum threads would have been spawned by the tapping method if it did exist for western tools. Perhaps there are as many tapping out threads as sharpening threads on Japanese forums??

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    7,252
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Hi Brian, I don't see any advantage to the tapping out process. I do however see the potential advantage of a hollow back. It seems the tapping out is a process invented from the necessity dictated by the hollow back. Certainly, if there were no hollow back then there would be no tapping out. Tapping out also seems very tedious and finicky and much more difficult than honing the bevel and back alone. certainly some western users would have invented the same process themselves if it were advantageous. God only knows how many forum threads would have been spawned by the tapping method if it did exist for western tools. Perhaps there are as many tapping out threads as sharpening threads on Japanese forums??
    Hi Pat, They're part and parcel, so can't have one without the other. If western blades were hardened to the same degree, they would need also be laminated to soft iron to support the edge and a hollow would need to be cut to allow one to back to be flattened with success, so it is not simple enough to conclude that because western blades aren't done that way that it is unnecessary since western blades do not share the same characteristics entirely.

    One problem aside, owed to a very curious circumstance, but I've tapped out practically every Japanese tool in my shop so once you have the process down it's not so easy to fail.

    It's a fairly regular topic on Japanese tool forums.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,534
    I tend to agree with William on the difference in wear patterns between a Bu and a Bd plane iron. That the leading primary surface of the iron will dominate within nominal wear.

    This could no doubt be confirmed by someone prepared to spend the time to undertake an in-depth analysis on the difference in wear patterns between to the 2 types of plane iron set ups.

    If one were to just focus on Bd planes irons, there is also scope to consider that the bed angle itself also has some primary impact on wear patterns.

    One could also consider with regards the use of double irons, that the time difference within wear can also be tied to how close the front edge of the cap iron is set from the leading edge of the cutting iron.

    Not something I would be overly keen to spend the time on, but I can think of a couple of guys that might take it on.

    Patrick or Kees; an opportunity has arisen for an in-depth analysis by a Mech Engineer.

    regards Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 01-18-2017 at 11:39 PM.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    In the words of Homer Simpson, 'it is both the cause of, and solution to all of our problems', though I'm certain he wasn't referring to tapping out.
    He was referring to Duff Beer, if memory serves.

    I hear that tapping out is like pool - you're better at it (in your own mind at least) with a couple sheets to the wind.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Lets see if I can clarify a bit. Both sides of an edge should be 'flat' at the very edge for optimal cutting. It was suggested that some of LV backs are remarkably flat at purchase (grey flat) and that 'polishing' will be detrimental.
    I said that polishing for the sole purpose of achieving a mirror finish would likely be detrimental. If you've got a serious wear bevel as you describe below then that's a different matter - the perfect grey finish is gone anyway at that point, so you have to do *something*.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    This ties in with the convention of finishing the back of a plane blade once. My bevel down blades fit this model but my bevel up blades do not, they develop a pitting roughness immediately behind the edge on the flat side. This detracts from the achievable edge.

    Maintaining the flat side frequently becomes essential beyond burr removal. This is a lot of work due to the large area to maintain.
    It actually isn't much work, for two reasons:

    1. You only need to achieve optimal finish on the part immediately behind the edge, so you don't need to maintain a large areas. Lots of people polish with pressure applied to the leading 1/2" or so, and some go further and use the "ruler trick" to focus polishing right up along the edge. Both strategies work.

    2. If the blade has been flattened (or came flat as with LV) then it doesn't take much work at all to remove a bevel-up blade's wear bevel as you describe. Such bevels are O(microns) deep, and that amount of material is very easy to remove from a flat surface.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •