Help with irons for my #5

[Owen Stefaniak]

I have a Stanley #5 Type 11. I just finished flattening the sole the other day and the tool has cleaned up beautifully. It's just gorgeous. Yesterday I began flattening the back of the iron prior to sharpening. This thing is light years away from being flat. I spent 45 minutes on it, it's not even close. I thought about just putting a back bevel on it and sharpening but I was already frustrated and stopped for the night. Now I'm thinking maybe I'll camber it and use it for material removal on rough work since I'd like to have something that functions somewhat like a scrub plane anyway.

This got me to reading about different irons used in jack planes and now my head is spinning and I have more unknowns than knowns. I'm wondering if anyone can help me make more sense of this tool. I know that a cambered iron will remove a lot of material; good for rough work. I'm wondering what other types of irons (shapes, bevel angles, etc) can help this plane fill other roles. What's a good iron configuration for smoothing? for flattening? etc. I know there are better planes for these jobs but this is the best plane I have right now. Should I just camber this blade? Should I just use a back bevel instead? Does it even make sense to try using this for smoothing and flattening as well or should I just start acquiring those specialized planes? I'm certainly not building any fine furniture right now. Mostly just practicing, skill building, and tinkering around. Thanks as always for your knowledge.

[Jim Koepke]

How does the blade do in its current state?

Some times less than perfect will do a fine job. The most important piece of the puzzle is that the cap iron/chip breaker mates properly to the back of the blade.

Some will give up on flattening an old Stanley blade and purchase a new plane blade. Which one is a discussion of its own.

Then the old blade can be used for rough work and the new blade saved for the finer work.

Another thought is if you are trying to flatten all of the usable back you may be trying to do too much. All that is really needed is about a quarter of an inch from the edge to be flat.

Also some methods of flattening will yield quicker results than others. For me it is quick to use adhesive backed abrasive sheets on a granite slab and work the blade side to side. One must be vigilant in avoiding rocking the blade with this method. As the iron filings build up it is necessary to remove them regularly to avoid 'floating' the blade and causing it to rock.

jtk

[ken hatch]

I have a Stanley #5 Type 11. I just finished flattening the sole the other day and the tool has cleaned up beautifully. It's just gorgeous. Yesterday I began flattening the back of the iron prior to sharpening. This thing is light years away from being flat. I spent 45 minutes on it, it's not even close. I thought about just putting a back bevel on it and sharpening but I was already frustrated and stopped for the night. Now I'm thinking maybe I'll camber it and use it for material removal on rough work since I'd like to have something that functions somewhat like a scrub plane anyway.

This got me to reading about different irons used in jack planes and now my head is spinning and I have more unknowns than knowns. I'm wondering if anyone can help me make more sense of this tool. I know that a cambered iron will remove a lot of material; good for rough work. I'm wondering what other types of irons (shapes, bevel angles, etc) can help this plane fill other roles. What's a good iron configuration for smoothing? for flattening? etc. I know there are better planes for these jobs but this is the best plane I have right now. Should I just camber this blade? Should I just use a back bevel instead? Does it even make sense to try using this for smoothing and flattening as well or should I just start acquiring those specialized planes? I'm certainly not building any fine furniture right now. Mostly just practicing, skill building, and tinkering around. Thanks as always for your knowledge.

Free advice is worth what you paid for it but here goes.....A type 11 #5 is a great plane, congrats. Depending on how you buy wood a #5 and a #3 or #4 could be the only planes you ever need. The #5 is a little big to use as a smoother but with a smoothing sharpened iron (little camber and with the ends relieved) will work just fine. The #5 is a very good Jack if the iron has more camber than a smoothing iron. It can also be used as a small joiner with the iron sharpened straight. With three irons the five can do almost everything.

Now on to flatting the back of the current iron, it sounds like you have a "belly" on the iron, if you do it is very hard to get it flat. One way to fix a "belly" is to place the iron back side up on your bench and give it a couple of good whacks with a nylon head hammer. It works better on a softwood bench but will work on a hard bench as well. In effect moving the belly to the bevel side. Then sharpening is very much like sharpening a Japanese iron with just the edges needing to be honed.

ken

[Owen Stefaniak]

I was just trying to flatten the the leading edge, not too far up it. Was using sandpaper taped to a granite slab and I was only applying pressure near the business end of the iron. The only thing I've used this plane for thus far is not a very good judgement of how the blade performs. I built some very basic pine shelves in the basement and a few in the garage. used the plane it to smooth out the facing edge and throw a quick and dirty chamfer on it. It did fine at those tasks. But I haven't really tried to put it through its paces yet. I was mostly just concerned about being able to do finer work with a blade I couldn't easily flatten.

[Jim Koepke]

I was just trying to flatten the the leading edge, not too far up it. Was using sandpaper taped to a granite slab and I was only applying pressure near the business end of the iron. The only thing I've used this plane for thus far is not a very good judgement of how the blade performs. I built some very basic pine shelves in the basement and a few in the garage. used the plane it to smooth out the facing edge and throw a quick and dirty chamfer on it. It did fine at those tasks. But I haven't really tried to put it through its paces yet. I was mostly just concerned about being able to do finer work with a blade I couldn't easily flatten.

Problems can occur with taping sandpaper to a flat surface. It can bubble or buckle in ways too small for the eye to see. It can be enough to cause misery to one trying to flatten the back or produce a keen edge on a blade.

As to "putting a plane through its paces" if a plane can make the desired shavings, what else is there?

Besides, it isn't so much the shavings we are after, it is the surface left when the shaving is removed.

jtk

[John Crawford]

Nice plane, you will enjoy this once you get it set up. Some thoughts:

* remember you can always purchase a new iron, either a new "premium" one, or a vintage replacement
* many people use the #5 as a jack plane, with a cambered iron, but less camber than a scrub plane (search here for something like "camber jack" and you will find plenty of reading
* if you can camber your current blade, and get it sharp (perhaps using a slight back bevel with the "ruler trick") that may be all you need for this particular iron. The issue is that when you are using a cambered iron in a jack plane, the chip breaker is fairly distant from the tip of the blade; thus the blade doesn't have to be perfectly flat (the reason you are flattening the back of your blade, is so that it will mate nicely with your chip breaker)
* if you want to use the plane for fine work, as you say, you will be wanting to set up another iron anyway. So, maybe you have your "jack" iron now, and you can swap out a different iron when you want to do finer work.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

There are a lot of different ways you can use that plane. Some of the confusion you are having is probably because what works best for one person depends on the other tools they have available. The guy with a power jointer, planer, etc., is probably looking to take fine shavings for smoothing. In my little shop I use my jack for very coarse cuts, and have other planes for finer cuts.

If you only have one blade, and are learning to use it (and thinking about using it for smoothing), I would not put a camber on it. Sharpen it square across, relieve the corners slightly, and leave it at that. You can always camber it later if you pick up a smoother.

In terms of the flatness problem: how are you checking for flatness? What grit paper are you using to flatten the back? As a general rule, if it is taking that long to get it flat, I would think you need to look at those two things.

This got me to reading about different irons used in jack planes and now my head is spinning and I have more unknowns than knowns. I'm wondering if anyone can help me make more sense of this tool. I know that a cambered iron will remove a lot of material; good for rough work. I'm wondering what other types of irons (shapes, bevel angles, etc) can help this plane fill other roles. What's a good iron configuration for smoothing? for flattening? etc. I know there are better planes for these jobs but this is the best plane I have right now. Should I just camber this blade? Should I just use a back bevel instead? Does it even make sense to try using this for smoothing and flattening as well or should I just start acquiring those specialized planes? I'm certainly not building any fine furniture right now. Mostly just practicing, skill building, and tinkering around. Thanks as always for your knowledge.

[Mike Henderson]

When I first started buying older Stanley planes - and the type 11 was my favorite - I experienced the same thing. Our ancestors must have NEVER flattened the back of an iron. The only older plane I ever bought that had a flat back was bought from another woodworker.

But what I learned was that the biggest improvement you can make to an older plane is to replace the blade with a modern, thicker blade. It's like night and day in performance. And any modern blade you buy will have a flat back.

Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't think that is a fair assessment, though it may be true for some.

The back is easy to take out if flat, and I've run into local resellers who give the blade a 'quick sharpening' that usually impressess unwitting buyers but would cause cringing in experienced buyers. I would imagine that to be a fairly common reason as to why one might see a back out flat.

There is a long road from the craftsman's bench to a new user's.

If the blade is a real mess, you have a few options. If you have a grinder, then take it back a 1/4", keeping it cool as you proceed. If not you can buy a replacement, I prefer Tsunesaburo Blue 2, but I also use Ron Hock O1. I'll be frank in that I found I had to put quite a number of hones on the hock blade before seeing performance, but now that I have done so I am happy with performance.

[Bill McCarthy]

I'm not very experienced with these things, so take this for what its worth.

Right around Christmas, I picked up a Millers Falls 22; its equivalent to A Stanley 7. I don't know how old it is, but seemed to be well used. The iron was slightly shorter than the chip breaker. I spent a bunch of time trying to get the back lapped flat, but one corner is so far out, if I keep going, there won't be any blade left. So I ordered a new iron from Lee Valley.

I needed to use this plane before the new iron arrived, so I put an edge on it and used it anyway. At the time I was impressed.

The new iron arrived and I tried it for the first time today. It is much thicker than the original. It has done such a fantastic job, that it now has me wondering if I should begin replacing the irons on my other planes. Just some food for thought.

Oh yeah, Lee Valley says their irons' backs are flat to 0.0005 or better.

[Robert Engel]

Owen,

The 5's usually have a cambered iron the camber depends on what you're doing with it.

I wouldn't put too much effort flattening one that bad. I think there is some stress in the iron that will always try to come back on you. You could make a cambered iron out of it with a back bevel.

You could pick up a replacement Stanley iron but you may have the same issues.

I recommend a replacement iron/lever cap combo. Keep in mind there can be an issue with a thicker blade on a Stanley engaging the lever height tab. Not sure but I believe that most cap iron accounts for this check before ordering. I have successfully used both Veritas and WoodRiver in Stanleys.

No question the Veritas is a quality iron you will notice the difference in performance but much more expensive.

[lowell holmes]

I

Owen,




You could pick up a replacement Stanley iron but you may have the same issues.

I recommend a replacement iron/lever cap combo. Keep in mind there can be an issue with a thicker blade on a Stanley engaging the lever height tab. Not sure but I believe that most cap iron accounts for this check before ordering. I have successfully used both Veritas and WoodRiver in Stanleys.

No question the Veritas is a quality iron you will notice the difference in performance but much more expensive.

I have the Lee Valley iron/lever cap combo. It is exceptionally sharp and affective. I highly recommend it.
I have the combo for three sizes.

An after thought, keep two irons, one for flattening and another for scrubbing. I have two irons for my #3 Bailey, one with a crown and one flat. It works.

[Owen Stefaniak]

Thanks for all the helpful replies everyone. At this point I am leaning towards cambering this iron for rough material removal and purchasing another iron to use for finer work. Bill, I wasn't sure if those Lee Valley blades would work with Millers Falls planes. That is good to know, thanks. I have a Millers Falls #8 that I got at a flea market for $10. It cleaned up real nice but unfortunately the iron is messed up. I checked it on straight edge and square and it is actually bent/warped somehow. It does not bed to the frog properly. Plane still works ok but not as well as I'd want for smoothing. Was wondering if I could find a new iron for it.
Here it is just for kicks:
IMG_0745 (2).jpg

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Many of the aftermarket iron/chipbreaker sets are thicker than the stock set. Some of them are thick enough that you may not be able to set the chipbreaker closely (which is helpful in smoothing), at least not without modifying the mouth of the plane. A lot of people apparently know that, but it was a surprise to me when I bought a new iron and chipbreaker. For a jack you may not care, but for a smoother, it is nice to be able to use the close settings.