Saw rehab / I.D help?

[Michael J Evans]

Hi everyone.
Was at a local 2nd hand (recycling) place yesterday searching for materials for my workbench, when I stumbled upon this little beauty.atkins full saw,medallion.jpgatkins full saw,non medallion.jpgatkins handle 1.jpg
I really have very little knowledge of saws at this point in my ww'ing , but seen the Atkins medallion and purrdy handle engraving and thought for $12 why not and as you can see by the pics the blade is fairly clean.

My saw restoring experience consists of two: one a no-name 16" back saw and the other an older D-8, both of which we're pretty beat up and rusty. For those saws I just removed the handle and soaked the blade in vinegar for a few days. Then gave them some quick swipes with sanding blocks, basically just got them in use-able shape.

For this saw I'd like to go all out and really try to make it shine and make the handle nice. I believe it's a Atkins no.64 ship point from around the 20's ( or at least that's the only catalog where is could find the embellished handle) , 24" blade length , 1-5/8" at the toe and 5" +- at the heel, 9tpi (10ppi) filed cross cut. Any idea's if I'm semi-correct on the model? (FYI I'm not trying to sell this, I just get excited about old(hopefully) tools, and would like to know what I have)

But back to the main question. As I was starting to sand the medallion side I noticed a etch appearing, I immediately stopped and started googling how to save it. From what I gathered I can just continue sanding with 320 grit??? Would I be better off soaking this in vinegar for a few days and then seeing what it looks like, or would that eat the etch?

Secondly I would like to re-finish the handle and this also really confuses me... Some tutorials I read scrape the handle then re-finished, Whereas others advocated just adding the finish on top of the old. As you can see by the pics the handle has a little bit of paint drip on it, luckily its not on the engraving and I figure I can scrape that off. I'm just not sure what to do with the rest of the handle. In my mind it seems if I scrape just the paint and try to add finish on top of the old , it'll look goofy. Like re-painting the hood of a car gloss when the rest of the paint is falling off. The second scenario I can think of is trying to scrape / sand the whole handle. I just can't wrap my mind on how to do this without damaging the the engraving, Any thoughts on this?

Lastly is there anyway to really get the blade to shine without using a belt sander or similar? The last two saws I did with the vinegar / sanding blocks, removed the rust but still left some very dark (almost black) spots. Or am I just being to wishful?

Many thanks,
Michael.

[Matt Evans]

Evaporust works very well.

Will preserve an etch, as it isn't an acid that affects steel.

I like using a bit of buffing compound on a peice of leather glued to a block of wood to clean afterwords. A bit of work, but the results are worth the extra elbow grease.

[John Vernier]

I have also had good results with Evaporust, and also with citric acid, which gives similar results. Deep pitting won't go away except with heavy sanding, and I think it's best to just live with it. Chemicals will loosen the rust and black out of the pits, though you might need to scrub pitted areas with a brush to get the gunk out - by hand, not with a power wire brush, which will make everything look worse in my opinion.

The handle was probably finished with shellac, which will dissolve in alcohol, or with nitrocellulose lacquer, which will dissolve in lacquer thinner. Some manufacturers started using lacquer in the later '20s, I believe. Either way I would avoid sanding on that handle or you will risk damaging the embossing. I would just wipe a solvent on with a rag and maybe scrub it gently to get the finish off. Either shellac or lacquer will redissolve if you apply more of the same finish, but I would try to figure out which original finish was used first, and using some solvent will help remove the paint spills and other grubby areas of the finish.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Michael,

This is the third time I have tried to respond to your post, having typed a complete response then hitting reply only to get "the website is not responding" and see it lost. For that reason, I will type one paragraph at a time and then save it. Well see.

+1 on what John wrote on the handle. I would try solvent first, using the same ones he recommended and for exactly the same reasons. Give the solvent plenty of time to do it's job and don't be chency with it, use plenty. If the solvents don't do the job use a paint stripper, solvent type NOT water base. A small soft natural bristle brush, like the old natural bristle tooth brushes and a tooth pick are good for getting the old finish out of the cracks and crevices of the handle decorations. Use the solvent once, wiping it off with a paper towel after the old finish starts to get soft/liquefy. Repeat until it is completely gone, and then use paint thinner to clean the handle good afterword, at that point an old washcloth or part of an old towel is great for the last drying/cleaning. Putting it in a tray of the solvent and going after it with the soft brush is good. Allow it to dry thoroughly at this point.

Only then should you use sandpaper, and then only a SMALL piece of very fine, 220 at the most coarse end, and I use 320 some. You only use the sandpaper on the rough spots that need to be smoothed down or cleaned up. I use the small piece in hand and very lightly and STAY AWAY away from the handle decoration. A little very careful sanding goes a long way and you can't undue the damage done by a heavy hand.

Sometimes, however, a light sanding in necessary for the whole handle if it is badly weathered. If you don't you can end up with a handle that has the finish soaked into the weathered wood, and it can look almost black. Again USE a VERY LIGHT touch, I can't emphasize that too much, again if you damage the decoration on the handle with a heavy handed sanding approach, you can never put the wood back.

Once you are satisfied that the handle is ready to finish, again clean it with paint thinner, or as a second choice lacquer thinner, not mineral spirits. Wipe it dry with an old towel or wash cloth again. Let it dry THOROUGHLY.

At that point you can go with new finish. Spray lacquer or shellac are easier, but not as durable as polyurethane. I redid my first carpenters, a D-8, over 40 years ago, refinishing the handle with polyurethane, and the handle is still in looking really good. Tough stuff that polyurethane. I have used spray lacquer at times because it is easier.

On the blade, it is tough to get the pits clear of the black color. I took the advise of another poster, who wrote about using a small wire brush on the pits, using a very light touch and lots of strokes. His picture of a brush he had used for a couple of years showed NO BROOMING out of the bristles....use a touch that light. I took his advise on my planes, and use a lot of strokes back and forth. The idea is to let just the very tips of the bristles do the work. On a given pitted area, I go 100 back and forth strokes in one direction, then 100 back and forth strokes at 90 degrees to the first strokes, followed by 100 strokes at each of the two remaining 45 degree angle directions. You are beginning to get the idea that it is not a 15 minute job to restore a saw blade to make it look really nice again, at least if you do almost all of it by hand like I do. Even with the above, I can't get the black color out of the deepest pits. For that reason, I don't buy ones with very deep pits, if I want the saw to look good. For me its better to spend a few bucks more to save hours of cleanup time.

Some of the guys, like Steven, use a grinder with a brass bristle grinder brush, and this may be just as good or better, and it is a lot faster if you have such a set up, I don't.....yet. I also have a Dremel and tiny metal brushes, and have thought about trying it, but have not tried it yet so can't give a report as to how well the Dremel approach works.

One approach that I haven't tried but intend to is to use metal polish, from an auto parts place, work it down into the pits, and then work it over with a soft natural bristle brush, like a natural bristle tooth brush, if I can still find one. I plan to use plenty of the metal polish.

The metal polish is also a good way to spruce up the saw nuts in the handle.

I do use some sandpaper, but use it on one of the small hard rubber sanding blocks so the sandpaper won't cut into the etch as much. You want the sandpaper to hit the metal above the depth of the etch, but not to get down INTO the etch. Sanding is risky, however. Again, very fine sandpaper, I like 220 and finer. I also like the reddish brown Scotch Brite pads, but stay away from the etch with the Scotch Brite, it will get down into the etch and do damage. One thing I do while doing this process is to protect the Scotch Bright and sandpaper from the saw teeth, and I do this by putting the saw blade on a 2X10 or 2X12 plank, and clamp a piece of soft thin lumber right over the edge of the teeth, so the teeth can't hit the pad or sandpaper. This leaves the teeth dark, but after a little use, and a few sharpenings they will look fine.

After getting the blade looking acceptable with the above I use metal polish as the last step. A poster suggested using a wad of aluminum foil to scrub the blade with after you put a dollop of metal polish on the blade, and then rub it back and forth until the polish is almost or is actually dry and you are starting to see the metal shine behind the aluminum foil as you rub back and forth. The shine will just be in tiny spots that have been rubbed clean of the polish. I do that, and the metal polish will help it no end.

I have done a few saws, and if you are willing to put in the time you can have the saw look really nice. If it isn't pitted much it can give a nice silver color shine, and give a great reflection.

Is it worth it to do this, maybe only if you want the saw to look great. If you are only interested in having a good user, you can quit far short of some of the steps listed.

Stew

[Doug McKay]

Yes nice #64 panel saw, equal to the disston #12. As for rare, you can find 100 Disston #12's before you find another Atkins 64.

[Michael J Evans]

Evaporust works very well.

Will preserve an etch, as it isn't an acid that affects steel.

I like using a bit of buffing compound on a peice of leather glued to a block of wood to clean afterwords. A bit of work, but the results are worth the extra elbow grease.

Thanks Matt. I haven't tried evaporust yet, just stuck to the vinegar and salt trick, but I keep reading about it and will have to add some to my arsenal.
Still working on getting myself a piece of leather. I went to woodcraft awhile ago and found a little piece but I think it was $15 or so. I'm just to cheap to spend that on a little piece of leather. We have a local (idk what it's called) leather smith? I'm gonna see if they have some scraps for cheap.

[steven c newman]

Ok, THIS Steven does NOT use wire wheels on saw blades. I do, however, use full strength Simple Green. I flood the plate, then have a purple 3M scratchy pad under a palm sander. Simple Green will float the rust up and out of the pits.

I have a "saw bench" outside, I take the handle off the plate. Things will get a bit messy out there. After the simple green is done, I dry the plate off. Then use sandpaper on the palm sander. usually 100 grit to start, and wind up with maybe a wet-or-dry 400 or 1000 grit, staying away from the tooth line.

About the etch: There is a Gun Blue Paste, sold at sporting goods store. I spread a coating over the area the etch should be in, and allow to dry. Later, sand paper on a sanding block, to remove the "excess" gun blue. Makes the etch, and any nearby pitting stand out.

Brass hardware.....Dremel wire wheel, or....just plain old Brasso.
Handle finish? that is left up to whom ever is doing the restore.

[Michael J Evans]

The handle was probably finished with shellac, which will dissolve in alcohol, or with nitrocellulose lacquer, which will dissolve in lacquer thinner. Some manufacturers started using lacquer in the later '20s, I believe. Either way I would avoid sanding on that handle or you will risk damaging the embossing. I would just wipe a solvent on with a rag and maybe scrub it gently to get the finish off. Either shellac or lacquer will redissolve if you apply more of the same finish, but I would try to figure out which original finish was used first, and using some solvent will help remove the paint spills and other grubby areas of the finish.

John thanks for the advice on the chemicals. I didn't know certain ones work for certain finishes. Until now I always just figured you got paint stripper or xylene to remove everything.I just got back from the hardware store and am loaded up for more saws.

One thing I need to work on now is safe disposal of the rags. I have one of those 5 gallon galvanized trash cans with a tight fitting locking lids that I throw everything in.

[Michael J Evans]

Hi Michael,

This is the third time I have tried to respond to your post, having typed a complete response then hitting reply only to get "the website is not responding" and see it lost. For that reason, I will type one paragraph at a time and then save it. Well see.

+1 on what John wrote on the handle. I would try solvent first, using the same ones he recommended and for exactly the same reasons. Give the solvent plenty of time to do it's job and don't be chency with it, use plenty. If the solvents don't do the job use a paint stripper, solvent type NOT water base. A small soft natural bristle brush, like the old natural bristle tooth brushes and a tooth pick are good for getting the old finish out of the cracks and crevices of the handle decorations. Use the solvent once, wiping it off with a paper towel after the old finish starts to get soft/liquefy. Repeat until it is completely gone, and then use paint thinner to clean the handle good afterword, at that point an old washcloth or part of an old towel is great for the last drying/cleaning. Putting it in a tray of the solvent and going after it with the soft brush is good. Allow it to dry thoroughly at this point.

Only then should you use sandpaper, and then only a SMALL piece of very fine, 220 at the most coarse end, and I use 320 some. You only use the sandpaper on the rough spots that need to be smoothed down or cleaned up. I use the small piece in hand and very lightly and STAY AWAY away from the handle decoration. A little very careful sanding goes a long way and you can't undue the damage done by a heavy hand.

Sometimes, however, a light sanding in necessary for the whole handle if it is badly weathered. If you don't you can end up with a handle that has the finish soaked into the weathered wood, and it can look almost black. Again USE a VERY LIGHT touch, I can't emphasize that too much, again if you damage the decoration on the handle with a heavy handed sanding approach, you can never put the wood back.

Once you are satisfied that the handle is ready to finish, again clean it with paint thinner, or as a second choice lacquer thinner, not mineral spirits. Wipe it dry with an old towel or wash cloth again. Let it dry THOROUGHLY.

At that point you can go with new finish. Spray lacquer or shellac are easier, but not as durable as polyurethane. I redid my first carpenters, a D-8, over 40 years ago, refinishing the handle with polyurethane, and the handle is still in looking really good. Tough stuff that polyurethane. I have used spray lacquer at times because it is easier.

On the blade, it is tough to get the pits clear of the black color. I took the advise of another poster, who wrote about using a small wire brush on the pits, using a very light touch and lots of strokes. His picture of a brush he had used for a couple of years showed NO BROOMING out of the bristles....use a touch that light. I took his advise on my planes, and use a lot of strokes back and forth. The idea is to let just the very tips of the bristles do the work. On a given pitted area, I go 100 back and forth strokes in one direction, then 100 back and forth strokes at 90 degrees to the first strokes, followed by 100 strokes at each of the two remaining 45 degree angle directions. You are beginning to get the idea that it is not a 15 minute job to restore a saw blade to make it look really nice again, at least if you do almost all of it by hand like I do. Even with the above, I can't get the black color out of the deepest pits. For that reason, I don't buy ones with very deep pits, if I want the saw to look good. For me its better to spend a few bucks more to save hours of cleanup time.

Some of the guys, like Steven, use a grinder with a brass bristle grinder brush, and this may be just as good or better, and it is a lot faster if you have such a set up, I don't.....yet. I also have a Dremel and tiny metal brushes, and have thought about trying it, but have not tried it yet so can't give a report as to how well the Dremel approach works.

One approach that I haven't tried but intend to is to use metal polish, from an auto parts place, work it down into the pits, and then work it over with a soft natural bristle brush, like a natural bristle tooth brush, if I can still find one. I plan to use plenty of the metal polish.

The metal polish is also a good way to spruce up the saw nuts in the handle.

I do use some sandpaper, but use it on one of the small hard rubber sanding blocks so the sandpaper won't cut into the etch as much. You want the sandpaper to hit the metal above the depth of the etch, but not to get down INTO the etch. Sanding is risky, however. Again, very fine sandpaper, I like 220 and finer. I also like the reddish brown Scotch Brite pads, but stay away from the etch with the Scotch Brite, it will get down into the etch and do damage. One thing I do while doing this process is to protect the Scotch Bright and sandpaper from the saw teeth, and I do this by putting the saw blade on a 2X10 or 2X12 plank, and clamp a piece of soft thin lumber right over the edge of the teeth, so the teeth can't hit the pad or sandpaper. This leaves the teeth dark, but after a little use, and a few sharpenings they will look fine.

After getting the blade looking acceptable with the above I use metal polish as the last step. A poster suggested using a wad of aluminum foil to scrub the blade with after you put a dollop of metal polish on the blade, and then rub it back and forth until the polish is almost or is actually dry and you are starting to see the metal shine behind the aluminum foil as you rub back and forth. The shine will just be in tiny spots that have been rubbed clean of the polish. I do that, and the metal polish will help it no end.

I have done a few saws, and if you are willing to put in the time you can have the saw look really nice. If it isn't pitted much it can give a nice silver color shine, and give a great reflection.

Is it worth it to do this, maybe only if you want the saw to look great. If you are only interested in having a good user, you can quit far short of some of the steps listed.

Stew

Wow stew, thank you for going so in depth.I've read a few restoration tutorials and I don't think any have come close to your post.

I might try to do the metal polish trick depending on how the blade turns out after basic cleaning. As much as I want it to look perfect, I also don't wanna spend $100 in stuff to do it.

My question to you is, after you spent the time to get the saw in the best shape as possible, do you still use it?

[John Vernier]

One thing I need to work on now is safe disposal of the rags. I have one of those 5 gallon galvanized trash cans with a tight fitting locking lids that I throw everything in.

Both alcohol and lacquer thinner will evaporate very quickly. I generally just set the rags out on my driveway for a while and they are safe to throw away once they are dry. The biggest danger with rags combusting comes from drying oils like linseed oil, and a lot of finishes containing oils. A sealed lidded can is good for those, although I usually put those rags out to dry too - those ones stay out on the driveway for a day at least.

[Michael J Evans]

About the etch: There is a Gun Blue Paste, sold at sporting goods store. I spread a coating over the area the etch should be in, and allow to dry. Later, sand paper on a sanding block, to remove the "excess" gun blue. Makes the etch, and any nearby pitting stand out.

Good to know, once I get that far I'll have to give it a try. Just Googled it and it's under $10, cheap enough to try.
Thanks

[Stew Denton]

Steven,

My apology, I thought it was you who mentioned a grinder with a brass wire wheel. It was on a brace, and looked very spruced up compared to the original rust hunt item as it came home. If my memory serves (my memory is always questionable), I asked how the poster cleaned up the brace, from the before and after pictures, and I think the poster said a grinder with a brass wire brush wheel. Again, my apology.

Stew

[Stew Denton]

Michael, thanks for the nice comment. However, while some of the ideas I use now were mine, in fact many or most came in answers from other members to previous questions that I had on this very board on restoring planes or other tools, and I have adopted them for my own rehab jobs. The collective knowledge here is amazing.

Yep, I do use them after cleaning them up, I never have been much of a collector of tools, more just a user. I don't know how long I will continue to do the "make them pretty" approach, it takes a lot of time, and I don't think some types of tools preform any better than giving them a bit more than a "lick and a promise." Hand saws do perform better if shined up, however.

One advantage of getting the saw blade back to a reflective shine, is that you see the reflection of the grain of the lumber on the saw, and this helps keep the saw cutting a true 90 degree angle, an actual effect that makes the saw easier to do better work with it. It is a lot of work, but makes it easier to saw more accurately. The saw also drags a bit less in use making sawing less work. The saw doesn't have to be super shiny, but bright and being able to see a reflection actually does help.

With regard to cost, the metal polish I use costs about $5-$6 or so for a plastic container with a screw on lid, and will do a lot of planes and saws. I already have a lot of sandpaper, so am out nothing on that. The spray lacquer is what Ace sells, I buy clear, and it will do a number of handles. I also use polyurethane, but a half pint of it, if you can find a container that small, will do a lot of handles as well. If you are going to do several saws, and hand planes, etc., the cost of the materials is fairly reasonable.

I sometimes get in too much of a hurry to get results, thus the spray lacquer. I should use the polyurethane and a brush most of the time, because it stands up so well.

The truth is I have too many tools that need sprucing up, mostly too many handsaws. The problem is when I see a super bargain in a hand saw it can be hard to pass up. I need to remind myself "Self, you don't need any more hand saws, save your pennies for a hand tool you don't have yet."

I left out the last step. After restoring one, I give it a couple of good coats of paste wax. I use Johnson paste wax from the lumber yard, but that's just because it was what the lumber yard carried. Other brands are likely just as good if you can find another brand. West Texas is primarily dry country, so the wax alone is pretty good rust protection. In a more humid climate better rust protection may be needed.

Stew

[Stewie Simpson]

Michael; I have refurbished a number of handsaws of the years, including the following D8. I do think your high focus on achieving a bright metal finish to your saw plate needs some rethinking.

regards Stewie;

[Michael J Evans]

Michael; I have refurbished a number of handsaws of the years, including the following D8. I do think your high focus on achieving a bright metal finish to your saw plate needs some rethinking.

regards Stewie;

Why do you think that stewie? I would consider the that D8 bright and shiny, which is what I'm hoping to achieve.
I may have been slightly misleading in my above posts. I understand that I probably won't achieve a perfect mirror finish, but I would like to get the plate and handle nice.

Most of my tools are older, somewhat by choice, but mostly dictated by budget honestly. Many of them arnt very pretty either, I usually just get them into useable shape and go on my way. So the thought of taking a saw that seems somewhat uncommon and making it look good again is appealing to me.

I figure this will be a filler project, to work on when my attention starts to wander from others. My main priority right now is building a bench. I'm still working on up drawing it up, after that my next priority is building my wife a entry way bench that shes been wanting.

Beautiful saw btw.

Michael