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Thread: Hesitate to ask a sharpening question

  1. #1
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    Hesitate to ask a sharpening question

    I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Sloan View Post
    I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.
    The performance of planes and chisels and other woodworking tools is so improved by sharp blades, and it is so satisfying to produce those sharp edges, that it is very easy to get carried away and spend inordinate amounts of time and money on stones and sharpening. Nothing wrong with that if you have the time and money and enjoy the process. But there are indeed points of diminishing returns in terms of both time and money, as I think your question implies.

    Everyone will have different opinions, so I can only give you mine. My opinion is based on using mostly Japanese waterstones for many years, both the synthetic variety and the expensive natural finishing stones. My best finishing stone cost over US$500, so you can see I tend to get carried away. I admit it is not practical, but I don’t regret buying or using such stones.

    If you want a cost effective, quickly produced, and superbly performing cutting edge, I believe #6,000 is more than good enough for striking chisels. Paring chisels and plane blades will benefit from some time on #8,000~#10,000 grit stones. The use of stones finer than this, while lots of fun, is not truly cost effective.

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 01-19-2017 at 2:42 PM.

  3. #3
    I agree with Stanley. I only go to 8000 and find my tools very adequately sharp. You do have to work both sides of the arris to the same grit - front and back.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  4. #4
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    Thanks Mike and Stanley, I think I'll wait a while before buying a $500 stone! That would buy a couple of very nice new planes. One thing that I believe helped me get sharper edges than ever before was doing the Charlesworth back bevel with the ruler. Thanks again.

  5. #5
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    Howdy David and a belated welcome to the Creek.

    My sharpening also ends with an 8K Norton. It produces a mirror like finish on wood and just for the fun of it allows me to make shavings thinner than a thousandth of an inch.

    Fine Shaving 0.0002x?.jpg

    Maybe a finer stone would allow for a thinner shaving if you have need of such. For most of my work, this is more than sufficient.

    Considering that many get fine results with a hard arkansas stone and maybe a strop, for me it seems like the money could be spent in a better way.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #6
    You might consider adding a strop. They're relatively cheap, and have some other benefits around ease of use. I realize that the choice of compound may affect whether this is appropriate after 8000. But for me, the bevel is certainly shinier off the strop, and it feels sharper to my finger, and it reduces the times I go to the stones.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 01-19-2017 at 2:55 PM.

  7. #7
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    I am a relatively recent convert to the strop. It sounds like Prashun lacks a microscope (as do I), so I cannot prove it either, but I think my edges are noticeably better with a few swipes on leather.

  8. #8
    The important thing in sharpening is how well you can discern the effects of small changes in technique or equipment. It will do little good to get a finer stone if you are currently in a situation where you can not notice just how good a job you are doing, like whether there is improvement from taking a few extra passes with you fine stone or a drop off in quality with a few less passes, either on the bevel or the back. If you currently see little difference between stopping at your finest stone or stopping at the previous stone, a finer stone might be a waste. If you notice a big difference between 5000 and 8000 it is more likely that a new stone would be beneficial.

    Can you notice when you have not eliminated the wear on the back of the tool? Can you notice (by the tool's performance) if you did not spend enough time on an intermediate stone? Can you notice (by performance) if the burr was eliminated? These things could easily have a bigger effect than finer grit.

  9. #9
    Ladies & gentlemen, are your seat-belts fastened? Might be a little turbulence ahead.

    Mr. Newman should be along shortly with the popcorn.

  10. #10
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    Well, I disagree with everything said above.

    I kid, I kid.

    I, too, am grabbing popcorn, and settling in.
    Paul

  11. #11
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    David, I've asked myself the same question for some time. I appreciate the input so far.

    Right or wrong, I work through Xfine diamond, then up to 2500 grit wet/dry, then a strop. Personally, I'm more concerned with the finishing planes. I'd like to get to a point where sandpaper is the infrequent exception. Getting there is likely technique/set up, as much as it is sharpening.

    For example, here's a piece of rock maple I'm working on. It needs more work (you can clearly see some dull spots), but am fairly happy with the sheen I'm starting to get. I really don't know if a higher grit sharpening stone will produce better results, or if I just need to keep working my set up/technique. Will be interested in reading what others have to say.

    IMG_0353.jpg

  12. #12
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    Up to 12000 grit on natural stones suits the type of steel I like to work with. Measuring the shaving thickness is a complete waste of time imo. Your eye sight alone will tell you what you need to know.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 01-19-2017 at 9:07 PM.

  13. #13
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    Having just entered this world, I'm loving these conversations.

    It should never be a problem that people with experience disagree. Nobody has all the answers.

    But some people have more answers than others.

  14. #14
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    When I was 10, I used an 'India' stone and a piece of thick rubber fixed to wood as a strop, things did get sharper despite minimal understanding. As you progress through, fine India, Arkansas, water stones, diamond plates etc. you do wish you had spent more on good stones sooner. You have to buy into the idea its worth it. I have a 4000x Japanese water stone that is a bit small, stutters and generally disappoints. You can get it to work but it's a pain. The 8k Norton I really like. At some point you are happy and stop. When you can have a good range of water stones & a double diamond plate for $400-$500 the natural 15k Japanese stone at $1000 does start to look silly. Leather strop is good and almost free! I tried the Belgian Coticle (5k) and wished I had not.
    400, 1000, 8k & strop plus large double diamond plate (400/1200) is a good start.
    Last edited by William Fretwell; 01-19-2017 at 10:55 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by paul cottingham View Post
    Well, I disagree with everything said above.

    I kid, I kid.

    I, too, am grabbing popcorn, and settling in.


    Not me. I've discovered that there is someone on the internet who is wrong, and I'll not rest until they have been set aright.

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