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Thread: Hesitate to ask a sharpening question

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mueller View Post
    David, I've asked myself the same question for some time. I appreciate the input so far.

    Right or wrong, I work through Xfine diamond, then up to 2500 grit wet/dry, then a strop. Personally, I'm more concerned with the finishing planes. I'd like to get to a point where sandpaper is the infrequent exception. Getting there is likely technique/set up, as much as it is sharpening.

    For example, here's a piece of rock maple I'm working on. It needs more work (you can clearly see some dull spots), but am fairly happy with the sheen I'm starting to get. I really don't know if a higher grit sharpening stone will produce better results, or if I just need to keep working my set up/technique. Will be interested in reading what others have to say.

    Attachment 352243
    Phil that is looking pretty good. Look for shavings that go straight up or back toward you, not shavings that curl up. Outside of that, if there is no tearout then you are just seeing the grain runout on the surface and it will not shine as brightly as the radial grain.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Look for shavings that go straight up or back toward you, not shavings that curl up.
    I've seen this in the Japanese competitions on the tube. Is there an explanation as to why that is better? I ask coyly...

    It reminded me of this clip:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJHrSmZQx10
    Last edited by Dave Zellers; 01-19-2017 at 11:34 PM.

  3. #18
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    Ah yes, thank you Brian, I now remember that from your video. And appreciate the grain input. Might have planed this down to nothing...for nothing

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    The important thing in sharpening is how well you can discern the effects of small changes in technique or equipment. It will do little good to get a finer stone if you are currently in a situation where you can not notice just how good a job you are doing, like whether there is improvement from taking a few extra passes with you fine stone or a drop off in quality with a few less passes, either on the bevel or the back. If you currently see little difference between stopping at your finest stone or stopping at the previous stone, a finer stone might be a waste. If you notice a big difference between 5000 and 8000 it is more likely that a new stone would be beneficial.

    Can you notice when you have not eliminated the wear on the back of the tool? Can you notice (by the tool's performance) if you did not spend enough time on an intermediate stone? Can you notice (by performance) if the burr was eliminated? These things could easily have a bigger effect than finer grit.
    Truer words were never spoken on the subject.

  5. #20
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    For some, there is a noticeable improvement in working the burr loose by taking that extra step above 8000 grit.

    Like all things associated with developing your own sharpening technique, its what works for you that matters most . No one should feel any pressure to adopt the techniques of others. That includes the type of sharpening stones you feel comfortable with, the type of steel that works for you, and the circa of tools that gives you the required results.

    Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 01-20-2017 at 3:40 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Sloan View Post
    Thanks Mike and Stanley, I think I'll wait a while before buying a $500 stone! That would buy a couple of very nice new planes. One thing that I believe helped me get sharper edges than ever before was doing the Charlesworth back bevel with the ruler. Thanks again.
    David:

    Let me add one comment. This "ruler trick" has been debated ad nauseam, ab absurdo. I don't want to start up the debate again. But since you are relatively new at this, and since you are asking for advice, let me give you some more. it will be worth every penny you pay for it.

    I urge you to not blindly follow my advice just because I tell you to, or because I make a convincing argument, but because you thoroughly understand what sharpening is, and have really thought through the long-term benefits of using the ruler trick or not.

    The ruler trick works. Please figure out why it works. Make some drawings and analyze the long-term effects of using the ruler trick.

    It is not a good long-term methodology for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is a crutch that will prevent you from learning how to sharpen freehand. The same goes for sharpening jigs. This is not a good way to develop the most basic woodworking skill.

    The second reason is that, while sharpening jigs reliably produce a nice, flat, very useful bevel that can then be worked freehand with no problems, the ruler trick creates a bevel on the back/flat of the blade that can only be properly re-sharpened using the ruler trick. Therefore, you must rely on the ruler trick always. Not tragic, but less than ideal.

    So, when you use the ruler trick, the blade's back is messed up, and you do not develop the skills necessary to sharpen the blade's back without using the ruler trick.

    Of course, the ruler trick is not a good idea for chisels.

    Learn how to sharpen like a craftsman.

    Stan

  7. #22
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    excellent advice by Stanley.

    Stewie;

  8. #23
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    Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I had made a strop but hadn't used it in years. I do have the Veritas green compound so I plan to resume stropping. I have had to flatten a lot of cherry panels recently and it is truly a delight to use a plane with a sharp blade. For me what I never appreciated before was to carefully examine the blade after each step. I found myself going back to a lower grit til I got it right. Now I'll hone with the strop after the 8K stone.

  9. #24
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    What needs to be understood is that the principal behind working to those higher grits of honing stone, is to wear away that fine line of metal that holds the burr in place. By stopping too soon on those higher grits of honing stone, there is increased likelihood you will tear the burr off prematurely, as you move onto the leather strop. Premature removal of the burr will likely result in microscopic damage to the blades cutting edge.

    Work on the strop should be brief, with little more that 1 or 2 passes on each side of the blade. Over strop, then you risk rounding over the cutting edge due to the inherent give within the leather surface.

    Maintaining a flat surface on your stones should never be underrated if your primary goal is to improve your sharpening technique. imo.

    Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 01-20-2017 at 9:40 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zellers View Post
    I've seen this in the Japanese competitions on the tube. Is there an explanation as to why that is better? I ask coyly...

    It reminded me of this clip:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJHrSmZQx10

    The goal is to see an upright shaving, or shaving going back over the blade because it indicates that the shaving structure is broken, the chip breaker is working effectively. You should still inspect the surface for defects, but the shaving direction is one indicator that you're on the right track.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #26
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    Appreciate the comment about the ruler trick and it does make sense. I did know never to do that to a chisel. Also helpful to know not to overdo the stropping. Even though I have been woodworking and woodturning for a long time, I am amazed at how much I have yet to learn!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Sloan View Post
    I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.
    David, 8k is a very respectable grit level. If it is not working for you, then you must question whether your sharpening technique is optimal. That opens up other avenues. If, on the other hand, you wish to explore whether there is a benefit in a higher grit, the I would use green compound on hardwood (which is my preference as a strop). This is the cheapest, effective method for working in the high grit range.

    There is no such rule that says you should not work on a strop for as long as a stone. A strop with compound, such as the Lee Valley green crayon, is effectively just a high grit sharpening medium. All that counts is that the media removes the wire. For example, one may go from 15 micron to 1 micron quite safely.

    In theory, a higher grit will create a smoother edge, which should last longer. Many other factors come into play, such as the abrasiveness of the wood you work, as well as you technique with handtools (are you heavy handed?).

    Just suck it and see. At this point you will discover whether it is technique or tool that needs further work.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  13. #28
    Stanley,

    The back of a plane blade is not messed up by the ruler trick.

    There are no long term problems which I have encountered in 30 years.

    The benefits continue.

    I guess you don't use it, so probably don't know much about it?

    best wishes,
    David

  14. #29
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    I have come to believe that does happen above 8k but I have yet to take that expensive step. The only plus is the stone need not be that large and will last a long time.

  15. #30
    As I understand it, the ruler trick produces a "microbevel" on the back of the blade - small, perhaps not more than 1mm in width. If you were to wish to remove that microbevel, it seems that all you'd have to do is grind the blade back by 1mm and you'd remove it.

    It also seems that using the rear microbevel could mean that you wouldn't have to remove as much material from the blade to remove the rounded portion of a dull blade (when sharpening).

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

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