Plane most improved with a premium blade

[Skip Helms]

Hi All,

There is a lot of information on the web about the very high quality plane irons being made today by several forges. I have a few and like them.

I'm not in any huge hurry to swap-out irons in my planes but I was wondering if there is a type of plane you feel is most improved by upgrading to a modern blade and/or blade and chip-breaker combination. By type I mean, smoother, jack, jointer, shoulder etc. My own guess is a No. 4 size with a hint of camber which is the next one I'm considering.

A bonus question, do you use different steels for different planes? Again, I'm wondering if O1 might be better for a smoother for light cuts and an air-hardened steel for jacks taking more stock per pass.

Love to hear your thoughts, thanks, sh

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Skip

The answer is "it depends".

All steels I have used get as sharp as one another. I regularly use vintage high carbon, modern O1, A2, PM-V11, 3V, D2, M2 and M4. They all are capable of shaving hair ... and sharpen easily as long as you use the appropriate media for each. Where they differ is in edge holding. And what influences this is the wood you use. Some woods are harder and more abrasive (e.g. contain higher levels of silica) than others.

Some steels differ in the way they fail, that is, how they perform when they wear. For example, O1 gets progressively dull, while A2 can chip. The flip side is that A2 will hold the finer edge a lot longer than the O1. Again, this is more important on some woods than others.

It is also relevant how the plane is set up. For example, if smoothing interlocked wood, I find a high cutting angle (on both BU and BD planes) is more reliant on the sharpness of the edge than a BD plane using a double iron to control tearout. So blade choice may be more significant if you prefer do not use a chipbreaker and prefer a high cutting angle.

Some may say otherwise, but to me sharp is sharp, and I cannot tell the difference between two identical planes that have equally sharp blades made of different steels. The difference only shows as they dull.

Similarly, the thickness of a plane blade can make a difference. This is especially the case when a plane has failings (is not set up well) and a tendency to chatter. A thicker blade can help damp the vibrations. However a well set up (chipbreakered) Stanley will plane as well with the original thin blade as an aftermarket thick blade in the right hands.

I love the relative ease of sharpening the older Clifton blades, and they have a silky feel when finish planing. However, the edge lasts a few strokes on my hardwoods. A2 lasts longer but the edge feels a little gummy and it is possible to get the feel of O1 along with the best endurance from PM-V11. I have these in my LN#3 and #4 1/2. This does not feel like much of an upgrade when planing as when one goes from a Stanley blade in a Stanley plane to a PM-V11 blade in the same plane. All planes start off planing equally well, however the better PM-V11 hold the edge longer and keeps the quality going longer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Skip Helms]

Thanks Derek,

That confirms a lot of my overall impressions. Most of my planes are Stanley's but there are some well-liked Sargents and others on the shelf too. Almost all of them have their original irons. I'm not obsessive about them but they are well-fettled and each is set up a little differently than similar units depending on the kind of cuts I want to take. I'll rotate just to keep things interesting.

Then there are maybe 20 planes I've built (or hacked) with thick, single-iron setups. Those are largely 3/16" or 1/8" O1 steel that I got as bar stock and heat-treated myself. O1 is pretty simple to harden and temper compared to other steels. I might not do it as well as professionals with my rudimentary gear but it works and I enjoy it.

Right now I have one PM-V11 blade and matching iron cap on one of the #5's. I left it dead straight across with a slight secondary bevel. Another PM blade is on order to replace a damaged original in my Junior Jack with the stock cap iron. I was thinking of getting two more -- one for one of the #4 smoothers with a very slight camber and the second in a 2-3/8" plane (#4-1/2 or 6).

My woodworking is divided into two camps: furniture and lutherie. For guitars I often use exotics which can be tough on steel -- lots of silica and often very hard with interlocking grain. But those are never large pieces. You have to be careful of tear-out so sometimes it's safer to ruin some sandpaper on the drum sander which also gets you uniform thicknesses. In the homemade planes I have 50, 55 and even 60 degree smoothers that do a really good job on figured stock. Spruce and cedar take a much different touch.

Furniture I make from US hardwoods -- which can be harder or softer but nothing like what I understand you have in Oz.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response and good luck with your projects. sh

[Bob Glenn]

I have a vintage Stanley no. 8 jointer. I ordered a Hock blade and chip breaker which greatly improved the performance. I keep that edge ground straight with no camber for jointing and use the other blade with a slight camber at the corners for flattening.

[Skip Helms]

Good point about being able to swap blade/breakers. All of my big planes (6,7,8) have the stock blade but I don't use them much.

Another good point about sandpaper. Sometimes I find myself finding little places on a scrap where I haven't applied finger pressure yet. sh

[john zulu]

I made a video on Stanley #4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04ioQSz0Lwk

From what I am reading. A2 steel and the veritas chipbreaker will made an ideal upgrade.

[Stewie Simpson]

John; nice video. Re the sides of the Stanley plane not being at 90 degree to sole, for use with a shooting board. Are you forgetting you can use the blades lateral adjustment to make up for any slight variation within 90 degrees.

regards Stewie;

[john zulu]

@Stewie: You do have a good point there. The side does not rock on the shooting board. Thanks!

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks John; appreciated watching your video.

regards Stewie;

[Rob Luter]

...I was wondering if there is a type of plane you feel is most improved by upgrading to a modern blade and/or blade and chip-breaker combination.

I guess I'd say any plane that displays inferior performance despite proper set up and sharpening. From personal experience, replacement blades and chip breakers made a world of difference on my Sweetheart era Stanley #3, #4, and #5. These are user grade planes that were found in the wild and required refurbishing. The original blades worked OK, but needed a lot of work to get them perfect. Rather than spend all that time, I ordered Hock irons and chip breakers for them. Performance was night and day. The most pronounced difference was blade stability. The thicker blade and chip breaker was much stiffer. Using the same sharpening technique as with the old blades, the new ones will take a much finer and consistent shaving. Edge life seems better too.

[Patrick Chase]

A bonus question, do you use different steels for different planes? Again, I'm wondering if O1 might be better for a smoother for light cuts and an air-hardened steel for jacks taking more stock per pass.

That was certainly true to some degree in the old, pre-powdered metallurgy days, though it depends quite a bit on your sharpening system. I think most would agree that D2 and HSS are only suitable for rough work. Opinions differ quite a bit about A2's suitability.

[Derek Cohen]

That was certainly true to some degree in the old, pre-powdered metallurgy days, though it depends quite a bit on your sharpening system. I think most would agree that D2 and HSS are only suitable for rough work. Opinions differ quite a bit about A2's suitability.

I know some that would disagree with you, Patrick. They are woodworkers as well as planemakers.

Philip Marcou builds planes of the highest order (I have one), and his favourite steel for use is D2. He has said to me that it is all in the heat treatment.

Terry Gordon, of HNT Gordon, offers HSS as his premier blade. He would not do so if it compromised the performance of his planes.

As a matter of interest, Mujingfang also offer HSS with their planes. I have one and it performs at a very high level.

A lot of woodworkers have built a lot of furniture using LN and Veritas A2 blades.

Sharp is sharp, and sharp works.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have an old #8. It is a "Franken Plane"; the previous owner parted out bits that were broken so bits and parts came from other places. One example is a Lie Nielsen blade and chip breaker.

My #8 is "finicky"so I had Steve Newman took a look. Steve postulated that the blade is sufficiently thick that there is inadequate clearance between the front of the blade and the front of the mouth on the plane. I should either open the mouth a bit or purchase a thinner blade. I do have the original blade, but I would need to grind it back an inch or two to get to usable steel, not sure the blade would then be usable. I intend to to widen the mouth when I have some time, it simply has not yet happened.

[Skip Helms]

Thanks guys,

Over the past couple years I've introduced a PM-V11 iron and two Hock O1 irons (with matching cap irons for the bench planes) to my herd of mostly Stanley and Sargent planes from their glory years. Except for the rehab ward, they are about as dialed-in as they can get using original parts. I really like the way the newer steel pushes through the work. I've got a bunch of homebrewed planes with thick O1 steel that also feel right. These newer air-quenched alloys look very interesting but, as near as I can tell, they need higher heat and better cooling than my low-tech setup can manage. I sharpen on diamond and water-stones and that works fine.

The planes that don't get used much are the candidates for new steel. I have a PM-V11 blade due this week for my junior jack but will try the stock cap iron first. I thought I'd get a new blade every couple months until I decide which are the users and which need new homes.

I have several planes in the small standard sizes but no designer steel in the 3's or 4's. I've only got one 6, 7 and 8C and those have stock irons as well. Assuming they work as well as they can, which of them would you upgrade first? A corollary question would be if there was a particular steel you would use in one application like a fore plane with moderate camber versus a smoother set for read-through shavings.

Cheers, sh

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]
Assuming they work as well as they can, which of them would you upgrade first? A corollary question would be if there was a particular steel you would use in one application like a fore plane with moderate camber versus a smoother set for read-through shavings.

Cheers, sh

If one of my planes is working as well as it can my thoughts wouldn't be toward getting a new blade for it.

The only reason would be if a replacement blade would stay sharper longer than the original blade. Then it wouldbe an easy choice, pick the plane that needs to stay sharp longer.

Don't get me wrong, my Hock O1 blades are well liked and do tend to hold an edge longer than the original blades. Their added thickness does have a tendency to dampen the feel of the plane cutting through wood. All that said and done, the majority of my planes have original Stanley blades and work fine in all from jointers to smoothers.

jtk