Preventing rust on new machines in a shoddy basement?

[Charles Biddles]

Hi guys. I'm new here, and although I'm not new to woodworking I've decided to slowly gather a collection of tools that I plan to have for the rest of my life. I've built a few pieces in the past with terrible second hand tools from craigslist on a budget, and I've always had decent results, but I want better and I'm tired of saying to myself "if I had the right tool". So now at 30 years old the "right tool" is within my financial grasps. The problem is my basement. It was a disaster, and I've hauled away 40 yards of garbage already with more to go. We had a pipe burst and things got moldy. As of now the basement is basically gutted with flooring beams and some plywood still in place. Nothing is square or level, whoever built this house just slapped it together.

This is a rental property, and I'll probably be here a few more years so investing a lot into fixing it when the landlord won't reimburse isn't a viable option. I don't mind putting some money into it of course, but I am saving for a house down payment as well.

Long story short the basement has a moisture problem. I had a scroll saw and a drill press down there, and they both rusted over(after a few years). My girlfriend just bought me a Dewalt DWS779 for my birthday, and I'm looking at Delta 36-725 table saw. I don't want these to get ruined in my basement, so I'm looking for advice on how to prevent issues before they start. I bought a few buckets of "Damp Rid" from Home Depot and they made it smell much better, but I know they'll never suck as much moisture out as a dehumidifier. I should be picking up a dehumidifier tonight off craigslist. But is that alone enough to prevent damage to these machines?

The entire basement is "open air" which means there's no walls. There's no insulation from the cement foundation at all. The basement is probably 60'x35'.

I know this isn't an ideal woodworking setup, but it's the only space I have for the machines I have. My tools are upstairs for now while I continue to clean up and get advice. I've worked in construction for a few years, so I know my way around repairing stuff, but protecting these tools in a problematic basement is something I'm not familiar with. All advice greatly appreciated.

[Frederick Skelly]

Welcome Charles. Glad to have you join us!

The dehumidifier should make a difference. Be aware you might need a second one in a space that large. Watch how quickly the tank fills on the first as an indicator of whether you could need another.

There are lots of protectants, ranging from Johnson's paste wax, to spray-on's like Boeshield. The guys will chime in or you can search the archives here (blank space in upper right corner of the page, or use "advanced search", below it). But IMO, removing as much of the excess humidity as you can is the crucial first step.

Fred

[Jim Andrew]

Lots of humidity is more than paste wax or boeshield can handle. When I was having trouble in my shop, tried a thin coat of wipe on poly, and it worked great. When it wears off, apply more.

[Frederick Skelly]

Lots of humidity is more than paste wax or boeshield can handle. When I was having trouble in my shop, tried a thin coat of wipe on poly, and it worked great. When it wears off, apply more.

Now THAT's an idea worth trying! Today!
Thanks Jim.

[Mike Cutler]

Charles

How open is "open air"?

I have a dry stacked stone foundation and the basement can get very damp. Everything would rust, and cardboard boxes would just disintegrate. It's not my shop area, but there are a lot of things stored down there that have value, so I understand your problem.

I have a dehumidifier running 24/7 all year long unless the wood stove is running. I store nothing in cardboard any longer, or any other material that would accumulate moisture. Everything is stored in sealable plastic totes that stack.

My garage shop is not climate controlled, so all of the tool surfaces are treated, waxed, and covered with moving blankets, when not in use. Everything that can be, is stored in plastic totes.

Change the environment as much as you can by using a Dehumidifier and get rid of any paper or cloth type storage containers. Store everything you can in plastic totes to cut down on the work the Dehumidifier has to do. Coat your machines and cover them when not in use.
A tip. The moving "blankets" at Harbor Freight have such a heavy petrochemical odor to them that I doubt there is much "organic material" in them to absorb moisture. They work great,and they're cheap. I use them a lot. They reek like kerosene for the first year or so, and probably killed the mice I get in the shop and garage, when they tried to use them for nesting material.

[Charles Lent]

I've had several basement workshops in my life. It's difficult to keep a workshop dry when it's located in a basement. Both wood and tools suffer when humidity is high. Here are the things that I learned to do.

1. Get a big dehumidifier, or 2 smaller ones, and connect the collection tank to a drain so you never have to remember to empty it. Then set it to run at 50% humidity. Buying this is probably the most important single thing that you should invest in, and you will be able to take it with you when you move out, so buy a good one. I used to take the cover off mine and clean it every year to keep it running as efficiently as possible.

2. Paste wax all of your cast iron and steel surfaces, and do it frequently. Boeshield works, but costs more and I haven't seen where it works that much better.

I always apply WD-40 to the cast iron first and let it soak in. Then come back in a couple of days and wipe off any excess WD-40, then apply the paste wax, let it dry to a haze, and then wipe the excess off. 2-3 coats of paste wax should be applied the first time. Then just one coat about once per month after that. I also add a coat of wax to the table tops any time that the wood doesn't seem to be sliding as easily over it. If you should ever get some light rusting, use a Scotch Brite pad to clean the area, and then treat this area as if it was new, applying the WD-40 first, followed by several coats of the paste wax. Don't use car wax because it contains silicone. Silicone on your wood will cause fish eyes in what ever stain and finish you apply to the wood later and it will ruin a project. Also, avoid the use of any lubricants in your shop that contains silicone, especially sprays. It is totally banned from my shop.

I've had several basement shops and the above two things were both highly necessary and gave me the most benefit for humidity control.

3. A bit unsightly, but you could buy plastic and cover the walls with it. A lot of moisture in the air can be reduced with a vapor barrier covering the walls. If you do any insulating, the insulation should go on the room side of the vapor barrier,

4. Don't open the basement windows or doors when it gets warmer.Warm outside air cooling off when it enters the basement will raise the moisture level in the cooler basement.

5. Keep as much wood as possible above ground in a garage, storage shed, etc. or only buy and bring into the shop as little wood as necessary for the project being worked on. Don't leave the project unfinished for weeks before finishing it and removing it from the shop. The De-humidifier extends this period.

6. If you have water on the floor after it rains you need to clean the gutters, and make sure their downspouts carry the water at least 6' away from the building.

7. There should also be no low spots near the foundation. The land MUST slope away from the foundation. Frequently the dirt that was back filled around the basement after construction settles over the first 10-15 years after the home is built and this settling causes water to run toward the basement wall instead of away from it. This slope away from the foundation needs to carry the water at least 3 ft away from the foundation wall and toward an area that drains. In areas where the surrounding land is higher than the foundation, a kind of small and usually dry stream bed can be formed in the lawn to carry water that's running on the surface around and away from the building foundation. Usually, these dry stream beds are 2-4 feet wide, but only a few inches deep at the center, so if located in a lawn, the lawn can still be mowed easily. The next time that it rains hard, put on a rain coat and take a walk around the building to see where the rain water is going. This little walk around can sometimes be a significant education, and many problems can be spotted and relatively easily fixed.



My present shop is in a detached building above ground and about 80' from my home, but it's also only about 100' from a large lake, so the humidity in the surrounding air is frequently very high, but the shop is insulated and fully air conditioned year round, so the humidity of the air inside has always been between 30-55%. This has totally solved the moisture and humidity problems that I've had in my previous shops. I no longer have rusting tools and the wood moisture problems in my shop that I used to have, but I still keep a coat of wax on my cast iron. Wood slides over the wax and makes the job go much easier.

It also almost completely solved the "sawdust in the house" problem. I always take a few moments to vacuum or blow off my clothes and shoes before leaving the shop, so very little saw dust ever makes it into the house now. The other bonus of a detached shop, at least in my case, is that my wife doesn't come out there unless she really needs me for something. She can call me any time to talk to me, but when the shop was in the basement, she always seemed to need to come there for many little insignificant reasons, and these frequent interruptions to my train of thought on projects has ended. I'm not far away, and she can call to ask me questions any time, but she doesn't,

Charley

[Charles Biddles]

Wow thanks for all the great help, and Charley I read the entire post. Great tips. I just got a dehumidifier, it's a Samsung and seems decent. It's only a 50 pint tank so I'll have to dump it daily until I get a proper drain going. That plastic barrier seems like a great idea, and I already have all the plastic to do so. Should I just tac it into the above floor beams and let it hang freely? Ordering the paste wax off Amazon now, already have plenty of WD-40. Cleaning up more of the basement today, hopefully I can get some plywood down on the floor, and set up a table or two.

[Patrick Walsh]

Plywood on the floor of a damp basement?

Sounds like a bad thing idea to me.

[Charles Biddles]

No, there are floor beams. I meant plywood on top of the beams.

Plywood on the floor of a damp basement?

Sounds like a bad thing idea to me.

[Charles Lent]

Wow thanks for all the great help, and Charley I read the entire post. Great tips. I just got a dehumidifier, it's a Samsung and seems decent. It's only a 50 pint tank so I'll have to dump it daily until I get a proper drain going. That plastic barrier seems like a great idea, and I already have all the plastic to do so. Should I just tac it into the above floor beams and let it hang freely? Ordering the paste wax off Amazon now, already have plenty of WD-40. Cleaning up more of the basement today, hopefully I can get some plywood down on the floor, and set up a table or two.

When I covered my walls with plastic sheeting I wrapped the top edge of the sheet around some 1 X 2 furring strips and stapled it. Then I held the furring strips up against the 1st floor joists and as close to the wall as possible, and screwed them to the floor joists. Try to keep the gap between the plastic and the wall as small as possible. Otherwise. it forms a path for air flow between the wall and the plastic and this air flow will carry the moisture from the wall down and around the plastic. If you have any seams or rips in the plastic, seal them with vinyl tape. You can buy the tape wherever they sell the plastic. You can also place a furring strip along the bottom in a similar manor to help hold the plastic down tight to the floor, but weights would likely be better than trying to secure it to the floor. I left mine loose, and later framed a 2 X 4 insulated wall, letting the plastic extend out under it. So the wall framing became what held it tightly in place.

If you can get plastic under those floor beams (not above) this would help keep moisture from getting into your shop space. Do this before installing any plywood. Putting it above the floor beams would rot the beams quickly with all of the moisture that would be trapped under it. Don't do this, unless the floor beams are treated lumber, specially treated for burial underground, and not just typical treated lumber. Again, if you discover any liquid water coming out from under the plastic and onto the floor, you have ground slope problems or gutter drainage problems outside at that location that needs addressing.

They make a white wash kind of water proofing that can be painted onto concrete or block walls that significantly reduces moisture coming through the walls, but it will not stop water under pressure. They sell it in cans like paint (expensive) but it's also available in powder form that you mix with water to make a thin paste. Wallpaper paste brushes or similar work best to apply it. Put it on thick and get it into every pore of the concrete or block. After it dries you will still likely need the plastic sheet, but it will make a difference, maybe enough that you won't need the plastic. I wouldn't do this to rental property unless the landlord agreed to it and paid for it. Bil-Dry is one of the brand names to this material, but there are others.

If your dehumidifier runs 100% of the time (it always will for about a week to dry out the very wet basement and make a difference, then it should cycle on and off as needed) After you have all of the plastic in place that you can install, and your dehumidifier isn't large enough to keep it from running 24/7 you will need a second one. Keep them both set to 45-50% humidity, lower if you experience any rusting problems, but you shouldn't have any rusting if you can keep the humidity at 50% or below and have a coat of wax on everything iron. You are going to see a jump in your electric bill, especially if 2 dehumidifiers are running nearly 24/7, but this is the side cost of having a workshop in a dry basement.

If there is no way to connect them directly to a drain, they make "condensate pumps", little pumps with a float switch that can be hooked to 1/2" plastic line to pump the condensed water from the dehumidifier up to a drain that's higher than the dehumidifier. The higher they have to lift the water, the less efficient they are, so plan the routing of the tubing carefully.

It's amazing how much water a dehumidifier can collect. At first, and without the dehumidifier connected to a drain, you may have to dump the tank several times a day. Keep a close eye on the tank level so the dehumidifier doesn't spend time shut off, while waiting for you to dump the tank. You will quickly learn that coming up with some method of auto draining is desirable.

At least once per year, plan on removing the cover from each dehumidifier and cleaning it inside. Also check and clean the drains and condensate pumps. Then put them back into service. You may need to do this more often in a dusty wood shop. The finned coils can be vacuumed and then sprayed with a cleaner like Fantastic, then rinsed off with clean water. Avoid water contact with the humidity control sensor. Then let the unit dry, possibly in the warm Sun for a few hours before putting it back together and into service. A dehumidifier kept clean should last about 10 years or more if the refrigerant doesn't leak. It may last longer, but in my experience, they were pretty tired or quit altogether after about 10 years of use YMMV.

Charley

[michael langman]

My basement is very humid in the spring, summer time. Moisture comes up through the floor on one end of the house.

I have 3 small basemen windows for ventilation and have been told to open them up to get rid of humidity in the cellar. That does not work! I made covers for the windows and insulated them and bolted to the cement walls around the windows to seal them off.

I bought a small pump with a float switch and put it into a 35 gallon plastic trash can. I ran a garden hose from this to the drain pipe for the washing machine at the other end of the cellar. The dehumidifier is raised up enough to drain into the trash can with the pump.

I put a plastic bag over my dehumidifier when not in use in the sinter time to keep dust off of it.

[phil harold]

Is there a sump pump and drain tile installed?
if so get a radon van connected to the sump bucket and suck the moisture out of the ground
this seems to work better than my dehumidifier
and also removes radon too!

[Charles Lent]

My basement is very humid in the spring, summer time. Moisture comes up through the floor on one end of the house.

I have 3 small basemen windows for ventilation and have been told to open them up to get rid of humidity in the cellar. That does not work! I made covers for the windows and insulated them and bolted to the cement walls around the windows to seal them off.

I bought a small pump with a float switch and put it into a 35 gallon plastic trash can. I ran a garden hose from this to the drain pipe for the washing machine at the other end of the cellar. The dehumidifier is raised up enough to drain into the trash can with the pump.

I put a plastic bag over my dehumidifier when not in use in the sinter time to keep dust off of it.

People who told you to open your basement windows in the Summer time do not understand the term "Relative Humidity".

Outside Summer air is loaded with humidity.Cold Winter air has much less humidity in it. When you warm up the Winter air, it will be very dry and will feel very dry to you. I've heard people say that they don't like certain furnaces, because they dry the air out too much. The truth is that any warming of the outside Winter air when it's in your house will be dryer, just because you warmed it up. It has nothing at all to do with the kind of heating system that is installed.

Warm air can hold a lot of moisture between the molecules that make up the gasses in the air. The colder that air gets, the closer these air molecules get to each other, and the less moisture it can hold between the molecules. Rain comes from warm air that is being cooled by atmospheric changes with cooler air moving in to an area that is warm and humid (full of moisture). It's simple, cool the air to get the moisture out of it. Let the air warm up and it will dry up any moisture that it can find.

The term "Relative Humidity" is a measure of how much moisture that air can hold at any given temperature, where 100% humidity equals all the moisture that the air can hold at that temperature. Raise the temperature of the air and the Relative Humidity of the air will go down, meaning that it can hold more moisture. Lower the air temperature and the air will not be able to hold as much moisture. If you have air with a Relative Humidity of 100% and you lower the air temperature, the excess moisture will gather into droplets and fall. Rain is the result outside.

Now, back to our wet basement problem -

When you let warm Summer air into the cool basement, it cools and gives up some of this humidity, which condenses out as water droplets on your cast iron and other cool surfaces. Keep the windows closed and warm the basement or run a dehumidifier, and the air will not give up the moisture because it will have less moisture in it than it can hold at that temperature.

A dehumidifier works because there are two refrigeration coils inside (one behind the other) a dehumidifier, along with a refrigeration compressor and a fan. When the dehumidifier is running one coil gets hot and one coil gets cold. The moist air is drawn in and across the first coil, which is very cold (about 35 deg F). Since the air is cooled by this coil, it is forced to give up all the moisture that it has until this air has a relative humidity of 100% at 35 deg F. We could dry the air even further f we made this coil much colder, but water freezes at 32 deg F, soit would become ice and it wouldn't drain into the catch receptacle. This excess moisture collects on the cold surfaces of the coil until it forms into droplets and runs off the coil into the catch receptacle.

After the air passes through this cold coil and looses some of it's moisture, the air passing through the dehumidifier then passes through the second coil, which is hot, so it heats the air back up to slightly warmer but much drier air than what was drawn into the dehumidifier. This drier air then mixes with the air in the room. After a while of recirculating the air through the dehumidifier, the room air has been significantly reduced in humidity and the collection reservoir contains the liquid form of the excess moisture that was in the room air and down to about 50% or half of the humidity that the air in the room could hold. The air will feel quite dry to you and it will not leave water droplets on your cast iron. In fact, this dry air at 50% RH will help to dry up any moisture in your wood, since it has a capacity to absorb this moisture.

A window air conditioner is made much the same as a dehumidifier, but the hot coli is positioned outside the building and the cold coil is placed inside the building. A motor with a fan blade on each end of the shaft circulates the outside air through the outside coil and the fan on the other end of the motor circulates the inside air through the inside coil. The inside coil is cold, so it removes the excess moisture from the inside air, making it also colder inside. The heat from inside is transferred to the outside coil and the outside fan blows it away from the coil to warm the outside air.

A window air conditioner will make a great dehumidifier if you set it on a table in the middle of your basement with it tilted slightly so the condensate water can drain into a bucket sitting next to the table. It will be noisy, draw more power, and won't look as nice as a dehumidifier, but it will dry the basement air out to around 50% relative humidity. This 50% Relative Humidity level and 68-72 degrees F by coincidence is very comfortable for us humans, so both you and your wood shop should be very happy in your basement, if you can keep it this way.

Almost all liquid moisture coming through the walls into a basement can be corrected by just sloping the land around the basement so that there is at least a 2-3 inch drop for 4-6' away from the basement wall, and the rain gutter system is kept clean, with the downspout water either going into a perimeter drain line draining away from the house or some way is provided for the downspout water to flow away from the house in some way, and not dumping out right next to the building foundation.. The only real exception to this is if the house was built over a natural spring or source of constantly flowing water.

I've tried to make this as simple to understand as I can make it. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. The term "Relative Humidity" and how it works is the key to all this. If I lost anyone, please look up the term "Relative Humidity" on Wikipedia or somewhere.


Charley

[Frederick Skelly]

Lots of humidity is more than paste wax or boeshield can handle. When I was having trouble in my shop, tried a thin coat of wipe on poly, and it worked great. When it wears off, apply more.

So, I tried this with a set of chisels today. I'm looking forward to seeing how long I can go without another coat. Thanks again Jim!

[Charles Lent]

With some effort to slow the moisture entry and a dehumidifier to remove what does get in, you won't need the poly. When rust is happening, the relative humidity is at or near 100%. Keep it around 50% and you won't have rust problems. Your wood won't shrink after you build something with it and then move it into your home either. Are you going to poly every steel or cast iron part in your shop? How are you going to keep your wood from absorbing it?

Charley