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Thread: Roman Workbench?

  1. #16
    I looked around for a few days, but the only Roman holdfast I saw that looked like a candy cane was made in the 21st century.

    I was taught mortising on a low bench in 1978. Here is an 18th century French bench. It is oak, five feet long, 12 or 14 inches wide, and has stout legs.
    low bench.jpeg

  2. #17
    I can't figure out how he made the leap that it was such a low bench from the mosaic he used for reference (linked here). The cherub in the earliest drawing are clearly working at a bench that is waist level. If I see a cherub in ancient paintings blowing a horn or holding a bow, I don't make the leap that these things must have been tiny for humans. The bow saw in the pic looks like a perfectly normal size for the two beings and it isn't a tiny one being almost twice the width of the bench.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Magnuson View Post
    I can't figure out how he made the leap that it was such a low bench from the mosaic he used for reference (linked here). The cherub in the earliest drawing are clearly working at a bench that is waist level. If I see a cherub in ancient paintings blowing a horn or holding a bow, I don't make the leap that these things must have been tiny for humans. The bow saw in the pic looks like a perfectly normal size for the two beings and it isn't a tiny one being almost twice the width of the bench.
    I think its a bit of a stretch to think too much that art is actually imitating life especially trying to convey reality. The artistic license liberates the artist from being bound to reality, hence in this example, the cherubs themselves, If they aren't real, then why would you expect the tools to be?

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    I think its a bit of a stretch to think too much that art is actually imitating life especially trying to convey reality. The artistic license liberates the artist from being bound to reality, hence in this example, the cherubs themselves, If they aren't real, then why would you expect the tools to be?
    I think you are missing the point. Unless you are saying Schwarz took artistic license in making it short. Occams razor. The simplest answer is that it was waist high. Everything indicates waist-high, so anything else is pure speculation.
    Last edited by Noah Magnuson; 02-18-2017 at 10:50 AM.

  5. #20
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    I say that back trouble took down the Roman Empire!!

  6. #21
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    Nobody noticed the SECOND picture, showing the low bench in use? Someone was sitting ON that low bench, chopping mortises, using their rearend as a holdfast.....

    First picture did show the "Candycane" style holdfast. maybe it is in the way a foot"pad" was made on it's end?

    Whenever I can, I work from a Shop Stool. Spinal Stenosis Lumbar makes the back stiffen up after too long of standing around. I can see where such a "sit-down" bench would help. Would also save me from dragging the saw bench down to the shop....

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Nobody noticed the SECOND picture, showing the low bench in use? Someone was sitting ON that low bench, chopping mortises, using their rearend as a holdfast.....
    I'm not sure what "second picture" you are referring to Steven, but when I was taught mortising 40 years ago, as I mentioned earlier, I was taught to sit on the bench and sit on the work to hold it. We used to use a small rug scrap on top of the work to make it more comfortable. A few years ago David Weaver posted a video of a Chines guy sitting on the stile he was mortising. Here is a Swede from 1890, sitting as he mortised.
    Nielsen 1890.jpg

  8. #23
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    The "second" picture was overlooked, because the Cherubs drew everyone's attention away to the first picture shown. Second was was right after that one. Also shows a fellow with a "horse".....may have been a statue in the making...

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    The "second" picture was overlooked, because the Cherubs drew everyone's attention away to the first picture shown. Second was was right after that one. Also shows a fellow with a "horse".....may have been a statue in the making...
    And we can't know how big the the bench is without knowing whether they are cherubs....or fat Angels !

  10. #25
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    Note the opposing grain direction on the bench top.


  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Note the opposing grain direction on the bench top.

    Sorry to have mislead you, Stewie. This is from a plate that had numerous items crowded in. That board below the plate, Fig 5, shows how to saw out multiple curved chair backs from a single plank. Figure 5 (chair backs) is actually discussed 14 pages earlier than Figure 4 (low bench). I don't read French that well and just now figured this out.

  12. #27
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    Contrary to popular beliefs, I was NOT around when these benches were in use....nor was A. Lincoln my Driving Instructor.

    I brought this topic up after watching an episode of the Woodwright's Shop. I thought it might have been of interest to some on here. Other than that, I have no real dog in this fight.

    Anyone remember how many pictures there were? What was the fellows name that did all the writing that interested Schwarz? 1502?

    When I am sawing dovetails, I am sitting down on the Shop Stool. When I am chopping things, I am also on that stool.

    I have seen worse ways of working wood, too.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Nobody noticed the SECOND picture, showing the low bench in use? Someone was sitting ON that low bench, chopping mortises, using their rearend as a holdfast.....

    First picture did show the "Candycane" style holdfast. maybe it is in the way a foot"pad" was made on it's end?

    Whenever I can, I work from a Shop Stool. Spinal Stenosis Lumbar makes the back stiffen up after too long of standing around. I can see where such a "sit-down" bench would help. Would also save me from dragging the saw bench down to the shop....
    The second picture is is a guy sitting at a lower bench in a chair. This is clearly a bench used for sitting work, while the other is a bench used for standing work (according to the pictures which are from very different places/times). To make a point, I never saw Schwarz attempt to work his bench while sitting on a chair with his legs though the other side. I don't think his bench was even chair-high. I am not saying there weren't short benches, just that the one that is the earliest record and what he claimed to have based his off of has nothing indicating it is anything but waist-high.
    Last edited by Noah Magnuson; 02-20-2017 at 10:12 AM.

  14. #29
    heidelberg_library_plate34.jpg

    Cherrubs were often pictured as childeren. And the height is about the same as the length of the sawplate, usually 50 - 60 cm. Not conclusive but at least pointing in the direction of a rather low bench.

    roman_bench1.jpg

    The second picture shows a guy sitting on top of the bench, not on a chair.

  15. #30
    QUOTE=Kees Heiden;2661492]

    roman_bench1.jpg

    The second picture shows a guy sitting on top of the bench, not on a chair.[/QUOTE]

    The Roman guy is not sitting on the bench; he is sitting on a stool beside the bench. In this photograph of the fresco, you can see that his feet point toward the viewer, not the direction they would if he were sitting on the bench. And you can see faintly the legs of the stool he is sitting on. I am sure they sat on the bench as well.
    pompeii floor.jpg

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