Engraving machine for our shop

[Jim Steffl]

Greetings,

I've been doing a fair amount of research regarding a possible replacement for our shop's engraving machine. A little background - we are a smaller engineering/manufacturing OEM that builds filtration machines for several different industries. We currently have a Gravograph GT M40DV that we use to engrave plastic laminated push-button legends, valve tags and name-plates. We also do some etching (diamond drag?) on some pre-printed/painted stainless nameplates. Software is Gravostyle 5 running on an old PC with XP. We've had the machine for many years and recently has started to leave extra marks when traversing back and forth on some of the larger nameplates. I've been tasked with trying to determine if we should repair the existing machine or look into a new one.

Other things to consider:
- We have in the past had to outsource stainless steel valve tags and nameplates for machines that are in corrosive environments. I believe these were laser etched. So the ability to do this in-house might help justify a new machine.
- Currently the operator has to manually type in each legend/plate to engrave it. We have no connection between our CAD drawings and the engraving software.
- Operator does have several saved templates in Gravostyle 5 that would be nice to retain if possible.
- Can only engrave 1 plate at a time

Not sure of a budget yet, but we did price out a refurbished Gravograph LS100EX (40W) direct from the manufacturer and that came out to $13,000. My boss thought that would probably be too high to go to our president with. So my best guess is that if we could keep it under $10,000 that would be ideal.

So my first question - is the M40 worth repairing? According to the operator, the tool isn't lifting high enough the further out it extends on the Y-axis. It's fine on the push button and 1x3" tags, but on the 5x6" nameplates its starts marking around 3" down.

Secondly, if we did get a new machine would laser or rotary work best? I like the thought of a laser's versatility. It would allow us to do all we are doing now and do SS tags (with Cermark), but I don't think we can afford a Gravograph, Epilog or Trotec. That leaves a Chinese import or going to an importer like Rabbit. Or used. And there is the potential software issues - we don't want to spend a lot of time learning something new if possible. If it's not Gravostyle then we'll likely lose all our templates.

Looking for opinions and for anybody who might have been in a similar situation.

Many thanks,
Jim
Waukesha, WI

[Mike Null]

Jim

welcome to SMC. I would encourage you to have another look at Trotec given the kind of work you want to do. It will also allow you to do some jobs for other shops and that may be enough to put you into the Trotec price range.

[Kev Williams]

First, read my signature

About the M40- I'm not familiar with it other than just watching a YouTube vid of a DV, so I know what it looks like- As to your 'leaving marks'-- there's 2 marks that will get left, one would be the depth gauge nose is leaving a shadow or scratches. If this is the case, you need to polish the tip of the nose cone(s). I do this by removing the micrometer collar with the nose cone still screwed onto it, then put it in my Harbor Freight mini lathe. I take some 1200 wet sandpaper and lightly sand the nose as it's rotating (not real fast, not real slow, have no idea the RPM ) -- I sand for about only a few seconds, just enough to smooth any burrs that might exist. Next, I take a polishing compound stick (used to load buffing wheels) and just press the stick into the nose for a few seconds while spinning. Now the nose is smooth as a baby's bottom

Second way to leave marks: " According to the operator, the tool isn't lifting high enough the further out it extends on the Y-axis." Ok, this may indicate some wear in the Y rails train, but it may also be just a simple mechanical adjustment. But the EASY fix for this is very simple- you're operator just needs to increase the lift distance in Gravostyle.
g5.jpg
I'm guessing the lift is set way less than the .095 I have set. Whatever it's set at, add at least .060 to it. If this doesn't fix that problem, something else is up...

Next, 'the operator has to manually type..." Gravostyle has a great variable list function that allows you to copy & paste text into it's spreadsheet. From your CAD drawings, you can copy any individual line of text and paste into a variable text cell. Or you can batch copy and paste. You can also import text lists from a notepad. Once you have say 20 differernt names in a list, you can have Gravostyle convert it to 20 separate tags, you send only ONE job to the machine, and the machine will automatically advance to the next name tag after each one-- Gravostyle will also import DXF's-- sometimes that's a bit clunky, but have patience, it works--

When it comes to stainless steel tags, beware of Cermark, as many of your customers will not accept Cermark etching as 'permanent enough'. I do a LOT of SS ID plates, and probably half of them require engraving with depth, and Cermark is superficial. My advice, pick up a fiber laser for those plates. 20w machines are around $5k right now. For laser engraving lamacoid tags, you can teach a Chinese laser to do that just fine, and a small one can be had for under $5k.

So- pick up a 20w fiber and a 60w Chinese C02, and try the adjustments I suggested on the M40...

[Keith Downing]

Greetings,

I've been doing a fair amount of research regarding a possible replacement for our shop's engraving machine. A little background - we are a smaller engineering/manufacturing OEM that builds filtration machines for several different industries. We currently have a Gravograph GT M40DV that we use to engrave plastic laminated push-button legends, valve tags and name-plates. We also do some etching (diamond drag?) on some pre-printed/painted stainless nameplates. Software is Gravostyle 5 running on an old PC with XP. We've had the machine for many years and recently has started to leave extra marks when traversing back and forth on some of the larger nameplates. I've been tasked with trying to determine if we should repair the existing machine or look into a new one.

Other things to consider:
- We have in the past had to outsource stainless steel valve tags and nameplates for machines that are in corrosive environments. I believe these were laser etched. So the ability to do this in-house might help justify a new machine.
- Currently the operator has to manually type in each legend/plate to engrave it. We have no connection between our CAD drawings and the engraving software.
- Operator does have several saved templates in Gravostyle 5 that would be nice to retain if possible.
- Can only engrave 1 plate at a time

Not sure of a budget yet, but we did price out a refurbished Gravograph LS100EX (40W) direct from the manufacturer and that came out to $13,000. My boss thought that would probably be too high to go to our president with. So my best guess is that if we could keep it under $10,000 that would be ideal.

So my first question - is the M40 worth repairing? According to the operator, the tool isn't lifting high enough the further out it extends on the Y-axis. It's fine on the push button and 1x3" tags, but on the 5x6" nameplates its starts marking around 3" down.

Secondly, if we did get a new machine would laser or rotary work best? I like the thought of a laser's versatility. It would allow us to do all we are doing now and do SS tags (with Cermark), but I don't think we can afford a Gravograph, Epilog or Trotec. That leaves a Chinese import or going to an importer like Rabbit. Or used. And there is the potential software issues - we don't want to spend a lot of time learning something new if possible. If it's not Gravostyle then we'll likely lose all our templates.

Looking for opinions and for anybody who might have been in a similar situation.

Many thanks,
Jim
Waukesha, WI

I don't know how large your company is, or how much work the laser will have, but have you considered financing a new US machine (trotec, epilog, etc)? I have a Chinese laser (Boss) and love it. But, the speed is a major issue with the Chinese machines; I think much more-so than quality these days. I can't imagine having to use a machine ~60% slower in a commercial capacity every day.

Plus, if you take care of the US machines they have amazingly high resale value, thus making the cost of ownership almost as low as some of the high end Chinese options. As a result you might be able to pitch it to your boss as a high value added at low cost of ownership, or possibly finance the machine through someone who understands they do hold their value. Just my $.02.

[Robert Bonenfant]

Hey Jim,

I would suggest going with a laser over any other method to do small tags. The biggest question is how many tags do you do per day/week/month ? If your doing 50 a week go with a Chinese laser - rabbits a great choice. They are easy to work with and will setup and service your machine, ive been to there warehouse and they stock over 80 machines and every part you would need. The main draw back with most Chinese machines (Most not all) is they are more like a hobbyist machines not full commercial machines.

If your doing alot of tags (500 + per week) then go to trotec - These machines are amazing. We have one on order currently, they are expensive but well worth the money. My friend has one at his shop and it runs 18 hours a day (2 shifts - Sometimes 3). We currently have three Chinese machines and they work but we always have little issues with them - Lens problems, tube trouble (third tube in 6 months) , Constantly cleaning the mirrors because they are not protected in anyway. We deal with the problems but it cost us alot of hours and time = money when paying people to work. Check with your boss and see what your spending cap is - I think trotec does financing as well.

[Jim Steffl]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Kev - took you advice and we did increase the lift distance and that took care of the immediate issues. Thanks!! I will also attempt the variable list function. I think right now he is only engraving 1 tag at a time but if possible I will see if he can do multiple with the table setup we have.

We are probably doing 50 (or less) tags a week, so it might be tough to justify a Trotec. Although the added benefit of SS engraving might help. Quick question on that - I have a SS valve tag in my hand that was done by our vendor. Is there a quick way to tell if it was done with a fiber laser or CO2/Cermark?

[Rodne Gold]

A $5k 20w fiber may be all you need..it does a marvelous job on most engraving plastics as well as metal. Superquick..it both engraves and cuts the plastics

[Keith Downing]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Kev - took you advice and we did increase the lift distance and that took care of the immediate issues. Thanks!! I will also attempt the variable list function. I think right now he is only engraving 1 tag at a time but if possible I will see if he can do multiple with the table setup we have.

We are probably doing 50 (or less) tags a week, so it might be tough to justify a Trotec. Although the added benefit of SS engraving might help. Quick question on that - I have a SS valve tag in my hand that was done by our vendor. Is there a quick way to tell if it was done with a fiber laser or CO2/Cermark?

If you can post a good picture I'm sure we can tell you easily. Cermark creates a black coating fused to the surface of the metal (the mark won't protrude down into the metal).

[Kev Williams]

A Cermark mark won't remove any metal, but it CAN distort the reverse side quite a bit. But then, so does a fiber

Cermark will be a flat, but usually consistent dark gray, relatively smooth to run a finger over but not 'glass' smooth...
A fiber mark will either be annealed, which (if done right) doesn't affect the surface at all, and will be glass smooth. And, the black is usually black when viewed straight on, it changes at different light angles.

or there's the 'I'm given' 'er all she's got Cap'n!' method where the metal will obviously be engraved, with brown overtones from the heat, sometimes worse than others.

these 2 tubes, one is Cermarked, one is fibered--which is which? -- they're really close, but look for the brown-ish...
DSC05467.jpg

And occasionally depending on the luck or the SS or both, a fiber can mimic Cermark almost perfectly...
one of these is fibered, one Cermarked...pretty hard to tell the difference, geusses?
black1.jpgblack2.jpg

--I REALLY wish I could get the same fiber results as this, but it's never happened.

[Jim Steffl]

Here a couple of pictures - one without and one with the flash. I'm thinking Cermark because it doesn't change color on an angle.

IMG_20170223_065739752.jpgIMG_20170223_065805366.jpg

[Kev Williams]

it's Cermark- the main giveaway is the rounded corners of the letters, it's a detail thing with Cermark. A fiber makes sharp, crisp corners and edges, unless you're really trying hard not to

[Mike Null]

Kev
I don't agree with your statement about Cermark. Sharp edges are indeed doable.

[Kev Williams]

Of course sharp detail is doable with Cermark, but rounded corners, especially shown under magnification is fairly typical
f3.jpg

you don't get round edges with a fiber unless they're on purpose-
this is a 'full roasted' version of black with my fiber on a 1x3 SS tag-
f1.jpgf2.jpg

Even as well BBQ'd as this engraving is, corners are very sharp-

[David Somers]

Kev,

Just curious. Why is that? (that you find Cermark gives you rounded corners on a fiber but not if you are directly burning the metal with a fiber)

[Mike Null]

Kev

Is it possible that it's a mechanical issue on your machine?