Vise Advise

[Caleb Gallentine]

Hello!

So I posted this same query in the general section and I got a few good responses and one response to say I might get more information if I post it here.

So I am starting the building my first workbench next month! Yay! But I haven't used many types of vises before so I am kinda shooting in the dark when it comes to picking one out. I have done a bit of research and I have decided that the twin screw (chain drive) vise appeals most to me. The problem is I've never used one and I don't know anybody that has. So I want to know everything I can about it before actually spending the money on it. I've been looking at the veritas and LN ones and I like both of them.

I want to hear from people that have used these vises, what are the pros and cons? Are there other comparable twin screw vises on the market?

Thanks in advance!
Caleb Gallentine

[William Fretwell]

The twin screw hardware may look appealing but will it hold wood to match your planned usage? That vise comes with it's own limitations as well, not to mention it takes up a lot of space and can just get in the way of some activities.

You will likely want two vises. If you Google work benches you will see a LOT that don't have twin screw vises.

There is a lot of thought and planning in a serious bench, but the up side is you are invariably very happy at the end!

[David Eisenhauer]

In line with William's comments, some folks have added in a Moxon vise to their routine so that they have the advantage that a wide-opening vise offers but without the permanent mounting that can create problems with the location of the vise at times. As William said, your intended vise usage will have a lot to say about this. If you do intend to have an amount of use for this type vise (lots of wide panel work), then the twin screw, chain-type does offer the advantage of one handed operation with the other hand available for material holding. There are a couple of "workbench" books out that might she some light on the subject but I cannot say that for sure.

[lowell holmes]

My vise is like the one in this article. I am happy with it. It is the quick release type.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/am...ker-blog/vises

[george wilson]

I haven't tried the Veritas twin screw vise, but the others I have tried could not stay parallel enough to hold a thin steel scraper effectively enough for sharpening. For example, I saw a brand new Ulmia workbench with double screw vise which was rather disappointing in this regard. They all seem to have just enough slop in the chain drive to let the jaws get out of parallel.

I made all the steel parts for the tail vise on my own bench. On the other end I just have a Taiwan made clone of a Record vise. After 10 years, it still works fine. However, being a musical instrument maker,I mostly use a "Universal" vise that bolts through a hole in the bench top. It is sold by Woodcraft,Stewart MacDonald guitar supply, and others. It started out being a GUN STOCKER'S vise, made in Germany. Sold by Ulmia. But, political correctness might have made the name change. The rear jaw can swivel to any angle, making it easy to hold tapered guitar necks in. Also, it would be great for holding tapered furniture legs.

I bought my first one in the 60's for $40.00, but it got up to $200.00 in the 80's ,if I recall the era correctly. That was just too expensive. But then, they turned up being made in Taiwan, and seemed fine. EXCEPT, do check the amount of slop in the wide grooves in the main casting that fit the 2" tall sliding bars. I saw a vise made in Canada that was MISERABLY LOOSE. There was horrible waggle in the vise jaws! You'd think they could beat Taiwan quality in Canada,. But, they certainly didn't in this case! And, the Canadian vise was a LOT more expensive! When I bought one for my wife's jewelry making shop,I checked several of these identical Taiwan made vises in the Woodcraft store. There was a variation in the fit in each vise I tried.

A vise I ORDERED by mail for the shop, was so loose,I made sheet brass shims over 1/32" thick to fit into the grooves, they were so over size. So,I NEVER buy those vises unless I can SEE them and TRY them out!

After several years' use in the Toolmaker's Shop, the German vise I had bought in 1986 gave up the ghost: The Acme screw stripped out the nut it ran in. I was not pleased that not even the Germans could get their threads deeper than that! I was getting ready to machine a DECENT nut, when we discovered that the screw AND NUT from a broken Taiwan made bench vise would fit without alterations into the much different looking Universal vise! I wondered in the Germans actually made their expensive vise,or bought them from Taiwan and doubled the selling price? Who knows. But, if you can get one that has only a REASONABLE amount of jaw waggle,I'd just buy the Taiwan made vise. It seems to be just as good as the German (?) one. I will say that my German made universal vise bought in the 60's still works fine. Being old as it is, they might have actually been making them in Germany at that time, and cutting a decently deep thread in the nuts too!

I have noticed a definite trend to make the Acme leadscrew nuts too shallow on Taiwan made machinery, too. I bought a "knee mill" that seemed little used to put in my wife's shop. It was used, so no kind of warranty. Well,the Acme leadscrew jumped the threads in the nut very easily. I tried getting spare parts. It was sold by Enco. But, no luck. They had stopped selling it. They sold an identical LOOKING mill in Grizzly, so I ordered the needed parts. But, they were NOTHING LIKE the parts in the Enco mill. I bought some precision threaded Acme screws, and was prepared to make my own parts, when my wife stopped renting the shop she was in, and moved her shop back home(where I had a whole shop full of larger, more expensive machinery. So,I sold the mill to a machinist friend who could make his parts.

Whatever that last story is worth,I don't know, but keep it in mind if you are going to buy vises or machines. I might remark that my vises last quite well generally, as I do not tighten the guts out of them like some may do. Just tight enough to hold the job well. And, everyone should learn to do that as well. I have seen Jon, my otherwise very skilled journeyman, tighten vises so hard, he broke the casting in half!! But, at that time, he had biceps as large as most guys' thighs!!!

[Chris Fournier]

Personally I don't see the need for the vise that you are looking at. A Record copy or a pattern makers vise from The Japan Woodworker would be my choice, I have both and they have served me well over the years.

[Stanley Covington]

I have the Veritas model on a workbench in storage far away from where I live now. It is a fine product, and performs exactly as promised, but I would not do it again, at least not in the standard setup. Too expensive, to bulky, in the way, not as useful as I had expected it to be.

I followed Mr. Schwarz's example and built a leg vise for my last workbench, and love everything about it.

Stan

[Caleb Gallentine]

Can you guys tell me some of the drawbacks to having this type of twin screw vise? I see that they are very expensive but to me, its an investment to last a lifetime so that doesn't matter (if it were only to last a couple years, I could see that being a concern but not if it will last me the next 60-70 years, I am only 22 after all). The Veritas seems bulky and in the way because of the metal shroud and the second handle, but both of those problems seem to be taken care of in the LN vise (so I guess the extra $35 would be worth it, the LN seems more robust anyways). It just seems to me to be no different than any other large wood jawed vise. But of course I haven't used many different types so I may be wrong. The only things I know for sure are that racking infuriates me and I don't particularly want to have to actively try to prevent it for my whole life and that I hate metal jawed vises (unless I am working on metal, in which case I use a pattern makers vise attached to the countertop) so I definitely will not be buying one of those. So anyways, could the people who have used them elaborate a bit more on the drawbacks mentioned (bulky, in the way, etc...)?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Disadvantage of twin screw- takes up more room, handles in the way if twin handle, cost.
Advantage of twin screw- big jaws and big clamping power, great for an end vise with dog holes, less racking than a single screw.

I personally love a twin screw vise on the end with dog holes. I like the Lie-Nielsen vise because it has only one handle. The Veritas is well made, but I see the other handle swinging around and hitting me, plus it's just in the way. I have the Lie-Nielsen, yet to be installed. The hardware is very well made. I liked the recessed chain and the single handle. The handle can be mounted left or right to your preference.

[Tim Cooper Louisiana]

I listen to the FWW podcast, and they really seem to love the twin screw vise and not the leg vise. I really like my leg vise, and can't imagine being without it. I do need to build a moxon.

[Don Parker]

I have the Veritas twin screw on one end of my bench and a pattern maker's vise on the other end. The Veritas is good for big things, but not for little things. If you want it to grab very thin stock, it is not great for that; it is best to have another vise on hand. The Veritas needs tightening of some adjustment screws every few months to keep the chain drive working correctly. Not a big deal. It has a neat release mechanism that disengages the chain drive so you can drive each screw separately for just a small amount. That helps with a left/right parallel problem in the workpiece, if it exists. But nothing on the vise can correct for a top/bottom parallel issue in the workpiece, if it exists. The Veritas is a net positive for me. It is not perfect, but it works well enough to justify not replacing it with something else.

[Noah Magnuson]

I would recommend that the less 'stuff' you have on the face of your bench, the better as it gets in the way. I have a leg vise and a medium sized moxon that goes on the shelf when no in use. Additionally, if you add a sliding deadman or sliding leg vise, use the method where the lower 'track' has a gap at the end nearest the leg vise for easy and quick removal. That way you can have a deadman and additional leg vise that can both be easily removed so there is nothing in the way of work. Those things just don't get used every day.

My set up is an old school's end vise with wood chop w/dog, leg vise, and sliding deadman and sliding leg (both quick removable and rarely used, but handy) also the moxon. I am thinking about adding another end vise opposite my leg vise on the other side of the table just for trying some clamping tricks. Sounds like a lot of vises, but the leg and end are the only permanent residents.

[Jim Ritter]

We have a Lee Valley twin screw at a community boat shop and it is always getting out of adjustment. Just a set screw keeps the screws aligned with the sprockets and when they shift, and they will, the screws get out of sync and the jaws are no longer parallel. I think the LN deals with this better but I have not used that one. I think it also depends on what you want to make. You are still young so that may change over time but as an example I used to have a nice Ulmia cabinet makers bench and I don't miss the face vise at all (I still miss the tail vise) the bulk of that wide jaw was almost always in the way of the tool when holding smaller pieces of wood. I suggest make a mockup of the jaw size and see if it would get in the way, cardboard would be fine for size, wood if you have it.
I'm another leg vise fan personally.
Jim

[William Fretwell]

The idea of building one bench for the rest of your life may work at my age but not yours! Only the simplest robust screw vises would last that long. Your needs & preferences will change.
The twin screw large vise is quite specialised really. The feedback here seems clear. It is good for wide work and double dog holes at a bench end. It is not as wide or as useful as a Moxon vise can be. I have no use for double dog holes like that, I can hold panels with one row of dog holes and a stop at the back of the bench or a rail across the bench.

You also need to think about what you give up. Installing a double screw at the end of a bench eliminates the classic tail vise. Think about all the holding options that vise gives you; the huge powerful jaws for leg or angled work cutting half blind dovetails. The most challenging to build but a vise you can appreciate for a lifetime. If you choose that option the double screw on the front really dominates and limit movement at the front of the bench for long boards. Some don't mind it for the work they do but most would find it troublesome and prefer a simple front vise, adding a Moxon vise as needed.

While it is easy to be seduced by gizmos, easy round dog holes, expensive 'easier' vise hardware, pop up this and that or expensive fancy add-ons. They mostly increase your budget, impose limitations and fool you into thinking it's the new standard.

The 'old standard' never went away, a little more work to enjoy (confidence building training). It served our forefathers very well. Fashion exists in everything; work benches are no exception. One of the challenges is ignoring the glossy pictures, perceived trends as useful, and build what YOU need. What you think you need right now will probably be wrong in a few years. With that in mind you can build a truly classic bench with time as your guide or succumb to fashion now and expect to build again later in life.

[Jim Koepke]

The only things I know for sure are that racking infuriates me and I don't particularly want to have to actively try to prevent it for my whole life and that I hate metal jawed vises

To me, this is all that is needed to understand why you feel a twin screw vise might serve you best.

My vises rack and it doesn't bother me to correct this. Of course if my vises working space was beyond ~4" it would be a big pain in the lower back region.

At times even my small vises get in the way. It is easy to take them off and set them aside when so desired.

jtk