One I thought some of you pros might like.

[Larry Edgerton]

Wow. The math involved in that makes my head hurt. That is impressive, especially considering you built it on your own! Anything else like that you want to share?!?!?!?!

Yes there was an inconvenient amount of math especially as none of the surfaces are vertical or square, and the compound curves had me scratching my head a bit. It was built in ten sections that slipped together on site using Dominos as pins. It was assembled in the shop first. I cut the hole in the floor to make sure it was right. It was a union job, so there was a bit of an argument, but reason prevailed. That was key to it slippng all together on site. But then the Union guys got the lower floor off by 3/4" in height. Ididots!

I made a pattern for the outside covering and made them in sets at the shop. The pattern had to be flipped for every other one even though all of the ribs are in exactly the same position. The curve was slightly different on opposite sides, but flipped left and right worked perfectly. I never figured that one out, but sometimes you just have to go with what works.

It was fun, and my most technically challenging job to date. I did a two story round victorian gazebo, but although bigger it was much more simple that this.

[William Fretwell]

That's most interesting Larry.
Reminds me of the movie Pulp Fiction where they eat out in a car. Perhaps it will feature in a movie someday & be immortalised for eternity!
Boats over 100 ft. often require a pilot on board for some stretches around the Great Lakes. Not a very convenient length.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Larry, thick veneer is what I am interested in. So is 3/16 the finish veneer thickness? I was thinking of keeping it 1/8".
i have heard some horror stories with thick veneer splitting but it is usually when a product is shipped to a different climate. What are your reasons for using epoxy for inside work.
joe

[Larry Edgerton]

Thanks Larry, thick veneer is what I am interested in. So is 3/16 the finish veneer thickness? I was thinking of keeping it 1/8".
i have heard some horror stories with thick veneer splitting but it is usually when a product is shipped to a different climate. What are your reasons for using epoxy for inside work.
joe

Ha, see above!

I have absolutely zero failures. The epoxy bond is stronger than the stresses that the wood is capable of generating and there is absolutely no moisture getting into the wood. Remember that I said I used a generous layer of West to bed it? That is the key, absolutely no voids. Its messy, I clean up the squizeout with alcohol and I do waste a lot of epoxy, but compared to the cost of the tables or the damage that a failure can do to your business reputation the cost is minimal. And I do a soaker coat of 207 on the top after it is sanded flat. I warm the resin before I mix and immediately spread it with a notched trowel to get it even, and then smooth it out a bit if needed. The warn resin sinks in farther than just room temp as the viscosity is less, but you have to go from mixed to spread very fast as that will slow the cure. It cure faster in mass, but I am sure you know that. When you clamp you do not want to overclamp, just enough to hold it flat and no more. If you starve the connection it is not doing its job. I had them roll just 1/8" curve in my steel cauls and just used two squeeze clamps on the outside corners for example.

After it is cured overnight I will use an air board to flatten it out again, and if time allows brush on another coat of 207 and repeat. I topcoat with something else, if it is to be in the sun something with a UV inhibiter. 207 is meant for sunlight but it has its limits and West recommends a top coat with a UV inhibitor for direct sun. I have not had bonding problems at all with a epoxy undercoat. The wood is basically saturated and encapsulated in plastic and it can not absorb moisture or move. I like epoxy, it lets you bend the rules a bit so you don't have to sacrifice creativity so much because of woods shortcomings.

I usually make it 1/8" myself, but Makore is pretty stable and it came out of the planer perfect at just under 3/16", so as I had no extra pieces if one blew up, I went with it as it was. Another nice thing about epoxy with thin stock, the edges don't curl up. Water based glues do bad things to thin stock of this width, plus you just do not have enough time. There are a lot of epoxy naysayers, but I think they just had one bad experience and called it quits. If you don't have it already get West Systems manual, its the best free publication you will ever get, and their tech line is awesome. While you are at it ask them to put you on their newsletter mailing list, it comes 4 times a year and has great projects featured as well as tips. They want me to put together a article on my exterior door building technique and want one on that table, but who has the time?

Later buddy, dinners ready......

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Larry,
I read it a couple more times and think I get it except for the part about the steel culls. Are you using these to press?

And, I assume the same techniques are used on your doors? I have been using West system to build skis and we put that on the top veneer as you describe to add to the finish. I will look into the newsletter.

[Larry Edgerton]

I could have made the cauls out of wood but the same company was making the base, so I had them whip up some steel cauls with a little spring just for fun. Besides, I was on a seriously short schedule for this job. I had just over 1200 hours in the whole project installed in about 10 weeks. They did work out well. Sometimes I make a caul to fit and just pile some weight on them, really do not want too much pressure.

Yes I use the same methods on exterior doors, but with the hollow core we talked about a while ago. I have one white oak set I kind of watch that have been out there in the weather about 30 years with little to no care and they are still rot free. I used Sherwin Williams 7000 automotive clear over clear urethane bumper adhesion promoting primer, and it was 20 years before the finish started to fail. the only thing that makes finish fail is moisture getting behind it, stop the moisture, and baring no physical damage the finish will last a long time. I add $2000 for the epoxy/ automotive finish though as it takes more time and the material are quite expensive.

[John Blazy]

After reading so many finishing posts, I always thought I was the only one using epoxy so much for non-boat, non exterior use, so its nice to know we are kindred spirits. I use epoxy for most of my joinery, then sealer, then auto 2K urethane topcoat for the same reasons you stated - insane strength, no creep in joints, fully filled sealing, while maintaining the light refractive qualities of the shimmering figure. Its a no-brainer once one is used to working with it. Titebond is my least used adhesive in the shop (PL Premium polyurethane is #1)

I'll bet that you also utilize the heat soak method you mentioned for end grain and other tricky joinery. When I did all the end grain joinery (especially the coaming) in my boat, I pre-heated all the joints with a heat gun to cause the epoxy to simultaneously thin down, thus soaking deeper, and to start kicking it off for increased viscosity which reduces starvation, coupled with pre-wetting / multiple applications. All the end grain joints on the boat are as flush as if the joint weren't there to this day, after fourteen years.

Super design and workmanship man - good job, and especially good job for bidding it right - great woodworkers deserve the $.

Let me guess the location - Harbor Springs? Pretty high-end area. I'll have to look you up next time I head to Leelanau County.

Lots of end grain joinery in this boat.

Got Mahogony-bluebirddocks.jpgAftViewComp.JPG1-25-finalcoveglu.JPG1-27-drumsand.jpgBoat-RubbedOutFinish-clsp.jpg

[Larry Edgerton]

Yes, The Pier in Harbor Springs.

I grew up surrounded by more water than just about anywhere, and so boat builders are around. I helped an old guy named Ivan Klender when I was a kid, he worked on old wood boats, and so fell into the epoxy/Resorcinal habit honestly.

Nice boat! As much as I like wood, I'll take my boats in aluminum thank you very much. I'm too lazy to work on a wood boat in my spare [?] time.

[Joe Calhoon]

Nice work on the boats John! I always listen carefully when boat builders talk exterior finishing and construction.

Larry, we been using West 105 resin and 206 hardener for the skis we build. Do you think that would be suitable for doors?

[glenn bradley]

Awesome Larry, you've got some serious chops.

[Larry Edgerton]

Nice work on the boats John! I always listen carefully when boat builders talk exterior finishing and construction.

Larry, we been using West 105 resin and 206 hardener for the skis we build. Do you think that would be suitable for doors?

Yes Joe that is what I use along with 205. If I am after max strength I use slow hardener and if I am after mostly moisture resistance and do not need the time I use fast. 207 if it will be exposed to sunlight.

On a door I do a wet coat on the mortise and tenons with about half of what I have mixed to let it soak in. Remember that epoxy is a mechanical bond so it needs to soak in and grab on, like little fingers digging in and holding on, so the soaker coat being thin soaks in to provide those fingers, so absolutely smooth surfaces like you would have with a molecular bond glue are not only not necessary but not desirable, especially on woods like hard maple that offer little saturation.

After the wet coat I mix some micro fillers with the remaining epoxy and lightly coat the first bit of the mortise and the tenons. This acts as a filler for any voids that may occur to insure 100% contact between the wood surfaces inside the joint.

On thing you will love is the lack of a rush getting clamped up and checking for square. Once the epoxy is out of the pot the cure process slows down and you have lots of time. there are many reasons that I would never use Titebond on any door, but this is a big one.

One tip that you may want to keep in mind. If your joints are nice and precise, as I know yours to be, occasionally you will end up hydrolocked. This is when you have a tad too much epoxy in the mortise and it has no place to go so the clamps will not want to pull in. No sweat. this is actually good, the clamps are forcing the epoxy under pressure into the wood. Do not get crazy on the force, just give it some good pressure and be patient. Sometimes it will come back out with the mortise, but sometimes not. In this case give it a minute under pressure and then drill a very small hole at the bottom of the mortice to allow the epoxy to escape. On woods like oak and ash it will usually not happen as it just pushes the epoxy down the pores, a good thing. But on woods like the Makore I used in this project with no visible pores you can get a hydrolock. I have had epoxy push out in oak 1/2" through the pores, kinda cool.

I keep a cordless handy with the smallest bit in the index an hand just in case, and drill a hole in to the bottom of the mortise on the door edge if I am getting too much resistance. If you force it too much it will actually split the style. Found that out the hard way.

I clean up with ample rags and alcohol while still wet. Some say it weakens the epoxy, but I have never had a problem in this instance. Rubber gloves are a must have.

Where you will always start to see the finish fail on exterior doors is around the M&T. This will not be the case on a door assembled with West. Life is short and I am inconsequential in the grand scheme, so I just want to leave behind some beautiful and lasting things. West helps me with that goal.

I am loyal to West Systems because they have been loyal to me and helped me develop some of my methods. I am just a little nobody that does not buy 55 gal drums of their product, yet they have always had time for me when I had a question. A couple of times they have not had an answer to my question and they have gone to their lab and done experiments and called me back. All the other companies are piggybacking off of their research, so I feel I owe them a debt. One door takes very little epoxy, so the actual cost difference is minimal.

Besides, they build boats! How cool is that?

Later, Larry

[Sam Murdoch]

Yes there was an inconvenient amount of math - I love that line .

Great read Larry, filled with excellent information. I'm with you on using WEST - "All the other companies are piggybacking off of their research, so I feel I owe them a debt." - Yes indeed.

Here is an epoxy cautionary tale.

I did a big epoxy job a while back - covering the deck of a 25' sail boat with DYNEL bedded in epoxy. Winter time in a shed but needed to build a plastic tent over the boat in order to keep the working area above freezing. Came the day -all the fittings removed, Dynel cut to size, West System bottles all lined up with roller and pans at the ready, tent all 62° or better, Sam all dressed in tyvek suit, booties and rubber gloves, safety goggles (missing in this line up is a clue to where is where the system fails and so the cautionary tale ).

I commenced to roll out the epoxy - plenty of work time using slow hardener and a big open roller pan. Laid the DYNEL in calculated pieces with proper and discrete overlap. Mixed and spread another gallon of epoxy and another pan full or three. Laid in more Dynel - getting so very near the end and the epoxy at the front of the boat starts to go off (kind of as planned though a bit early). Well, too soon my tented work space was filling with epoxy curing fumes. The item missing in my set up - a respirator - was now the most important tool. I could not stop. No choice but to complete the work. Fortunately only 20 minutes or so more to go but oh such a long 20 minutes. Without a respirator my eyes were flooded with tears and I was certain my brain was oozing out - THROUGH MY NOSE . OMG was I in a panic - and suffering - and kicking myself for having been soooo stupid. No one around to help - they wouldn't have volunteered at this point in any case - except to hand me some paper towels to catch my oozing brain mucus. Yes, I finally finished. Did a good job right to the end but then practically fell off the boat - kicked my buckets and roller pans and other epoxy soaked stuff into a snow bank where fire would not add another chapter to this story and set my swirling and near empty head in the snow to boot. Can't recall much of the recovery phase. I think it was a few hours before my eyes and nose felt somewhere near normal again. I was secretly very embarrassed - trained professional indeed . The boat deck was a perfect job though, in case you are wondering.

Moral of the story - Be certain to allow for venting of epoxy fumes and take care to protect yourself thoroughly.

Larry does not need to be taught this. . I share for the grasshoppers who might venture into the working world of big epoxy projects.

[jack duren]

Nice work....It's the Norm in the restaurant business...
11701202_931666846895145_8090588665058400541_n.jpgimage_oakpark0001_large.jpgmain_image_booths.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

Yes Joe that is what I use along with 205. If I am after max strength I use slow hardener and if I am after mostly moisture resistance and do not need the time I use fast. 207 if it will be exposed to sunlight.

On a door I do a wet coat on the mortise and tenons with about half of what I have mixed to let it soak in. Remember that epoxy is a mechanical bond so it needs to soak in and grab on, like little fingers digging in and holding on, so the soaker coat being thin soaks in to provide those fingers, so absolutely smooth surfaces like you would have with a molecular bond glue are not only not necessary but not desirable, especially on woods like hard maple that offer little saturation.

After the wet coat I mix some micro fillers with the remaining epoxy and lightly coat the first bit of the mortise and the tenons. This acts as a filler for any voids that may occur to insure 100% contact between the wood surfaces inside the joint.

On thing you will love is the lack of a rush getting clamped up and checking for square. Once the epoxy is out of the pot the cure process slows down and you have lots of time. there are many reasons that I would never use Titebond on any door, but this is a big one.

One tip that you may want to keep in mind. If your joints are nice and precise, as I know yours to be, occasionally you will end up hydrolocked. This is when you have a tad too much epoxy in the mortise and it has no place to go so the clamps will not want to pull in. No sweat. this is actually good, the clamps are forcing the epoxy under pressure into the wood. Do not get crazy on the force, just give it some good pressure and be patient. Sometimes it will come back out with the mortise, but sometimes not. In this case give it a minute under pressure and then drill a very small hole at the bottom of the mortice to allow the epoxy to escape. On woods like oak and ash it will usually not happen as it just pushes the epoxy down the pores, a good thing. But on woods like the Makore I used in this project with no visible pores you can get a hydrolock. I have had epoxy push out in oak 1/2" through the pores, kinda cool.

I keep a cordless handy with the smallest bit in the index an hand just in case, and drill a hole in to the bottom of the mortise on the door edge if I am getting too much resistance. If you force it too much it will actually split the style. Found that out the hard way.

I clean up with ample rags and alcohol while still wet. Some say it weakens the epoxy, but I have never had a problem in this instance. Rubber gloves are a must have.

Where you will always start to see the finish fail on exterior doors is around the M&T. This will not be the case on a door assembled with West. Life is short and I am inconsequential in the grand scheme, so I just want to leave behind some beautiful and lasting things. West helps me with that goal.

I am loyal to West Systems because they have been loyal to me and helped me develop some of my methods. I am just a little nobody that does not buy 55 gal drums of their product, yet they have always had time for me when I had a question. A couple of times they have not had an answer to my question and they have gone to their lab and done experiments and called me back. All the other companies are piggybacking off of their research, so I feel I owe them a debt. One door takes very little epoxy, so the actual cost difference is minimal.

Besides, they build boats! How cool is that?

Later, Larry

Thanks Larry, good info.
Our joinery is too tight for epoxy. I am not going to make any changes in our stile - rail doors and windows. we have a good system and the Euro waterbase finishes are working for us and easy to touch up when finish failure starts. You are right about finish failure at the joints. We counter this with pillowed joints caulked between coats of finish. It works because the joint is already broken and wood movement will not crack the finish.

I sold my Colombo tenoner to a door shop in Maine that was operated by former boatbuilders. Their method of joinery was dowels and they would drill oversize to the point the dowel would just flop around in the hole. They said they were generous with the epoxy and this was stronger than a tight fit. I believe it with epoxy.

I want to try your method on some slab doors with thick veneer. I get that totally encasing the wood should counter movement and cracking. One thing, a few years ago we tried a auto type clearcoat on a door and it failed quickly due to the wood movement and brittle finish. Possibly again, epoxy both sides might counter wood movement. We are in a tough enviroment here with projects at 8000 to 10,500 foot elevations where the UV is bad.

[Larry Edgerton]

Joe, I would have to rethink a lot of my processes if I was working in your environment. My daughter used to live in Winter Park, and it was awful dry there, and the sun was indeed intense.

Here we have crazy temp swings and a lot of moisture to deal with, but not the extreme UV. The high relative humidity takes care of that. Just as an example a few years ago Radenta showed up as an alternative to pine. Guys jumped on it for exterior trim as it was cheaper and clear. I saw one house next to one I built that used it. It was well painted and back primed, but it rotted in one year, and not just a little bit, total replacement was necessary. So, my primary concern is keeping the moisture out. I realize keeping it totally out is impossible, but slowing down the process allows a piece to weather a couple of really bad days with little effect.

I had some issues when I first used Auto finishes as well. What I came up with with the help of friends in that business was that I would get the doors finished to satisfaction with a good water based finish so that all pores were filled and the finish was glass smooth. Then I would spray with a clear adhesion promoting primer designed for urethane bumpers. This adhered well to the WB with no lifting and was designed to be flexible. Then I top coat with a clear that has a lot of flex, Sherwin Williams Ultra 7000. The stuff is cool, you spray it, and when it is surface dry but will still wiggle with your finger you hit it with an egg crate buffer and it just magically flattens out. I had an automotive spray booth at my old shop, which I am really missing at my new shrunken digs, but it will happen again. For now I rent booth time for doors. I sprayed the doors on a rotisserie so I could just roll the doors and do both sides.

Sam. I had a similar experience with a large floor and Guardsman stain. First, and last. time using the stain and did not realize how bad it was, but once you start you have to finish. My buddy Mark and I walked outside into subzero cold when we were done and both of us passed out. So yes, always have a respirator on hand! We did not actually realize how bad a shape we were in until we hit the cold air outside.