I need to attach an apron to legs. The original design concept was for M&T. Is it sacrilege to use pocket screws if they will never be seen under normal viewing?
[OP]
Contributor
I need to attach an apron to legs. The original design concept was for M&T. Is it sacrilege to use pocket screws if they will never be seen under normal viewing?
Contributor
I'd say that a properly-made mortise & tenon joint is stronger than pocket screws. I will concede that the only way to test that is to really abuse your furniture, but still I use real M&T on real furniture.
Member
Not sacrilege as woodworking is not a religion but it is a downgrade. Think more about whether the leg will be firmly enough attached. Would it pass the 'drunk falling over it' test? Cheers
Member
Glue in corner blocks + add a corner angle brace.
Last edited by Robert Engel; 03-08-2017 at 9:47 AM.
Moderator
The apron-leg joint is the most critical one on a table. On a large table it needs to be strong.
I have made plenty (for me) smaller tables with pocket screws.
The biggest critic of my pocket hole furniture is me.
I would say that if you are selling this as 'finer' furniture, then you'd be wiser to pick something else.
[OP]
Contributor
This is for a jewelry cabinet in the Krenov style.Krenov Style Case.jpg
I am thinking of making the legs similar to this, however the upper portion will be a series of drawers from Bird's Eye Maple and there will two swing doors on the side for hanging necklaces. Overall width about 20?, depth about 12" and height of box about 20", so not a heavy piece. I will post sketchup or other drawings once I have finalized a design. Piece is for my wife.
If you want the look without the work or the strength then pocket holes will be fine. You can increase your joint strength using angle blocks as Robert suggests.
This type of joint is under my second-hand Wal-Mart kitchen table right now and has been in use by me for a decade. You will find pocket holes used in furniture built before you were born; they are not the devil. Their use in place of better joinery is all you have to watch out for. Face frames, carcass trim, even drawer boxes and machine stands have been made with nothing but pocket holes. Are they heirlooms to be passed down? Probably not. Do they work for now? Absolutely.Originally Posted by Robert Engel
Oops! That post snuck in while I was typing. I would not use pocket holes on a piece like that just out of respect. In the end only you can choose how you want to make a piece. A rocking chair is not a bathroom cabinet and what is right for one is not often right for the other ;-)
Last edited by glenn bradley; 03-08-2017 at 10:41 AM.
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".
– Samuel Butler
Moderator
I agree with Glen's 'respect' statement on this piece. This is not to bash pocket holes. I think they would be plenty strong here. However, a Krenov design is meticulous in design. If you're going to spend time shaping the legs, fitting the hinges, and fitting the doors, and picking beautiful wood, then take the time to to make the leg/apron joints hidden. Go all the way. My advice. Worth the price of those pocket screws.
FWIW, Krenov liked dowels...
Contributor
I would probably use dowels.....
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[OP]
Contributor
On a similar plan that has details from Fine WW, he used MT for the skirt, but for the carcass (box) he used dowels to connect the carcass to the base. I am thinking for the base that I will use plywood with a perimeter of mesquite to give the appearance of a full mesquite base. Have not decided on what the sides of the box will be as they will be well hidden with drawers. Jewelry Cab Rev01.JPG So this is a Visio rendition pf the first thoughts. I would liek to make teh top opening with a mirror unerneath but not quite sure how yet. About 48-56" tall total.
Last edited by tim walker; 03-08-2017 at 9:47 PM.
Contributor
Don't do it. Way too nice of a design for pocket screws. That's no DIY MDF cabinet.
I have no problem using them for kitchen cabinets, but not for that. A M&T joint is not that hard to learn.
Dan
Contributor
Prashun, You're right he liked dowels for cases, as in the upper case of the piece being discussed, but I have always understood the Krenovian method to use M&T for an apron/leg joint. In fact, the orthodox trinity for the classic Krenov cabinet on stand would be dowels for the case, M&T for the leg/apron base joint, and bridle joint for the doors.
Sometimes people wonder why the case would not be dovetailed or use another classic corner joint, and I was told that Krenov's design called for the sides to be inset by 1/8" or so thus creating a shadow line where the top and bottom meet the sides. To do that with dovetails would require covering them with a molding or setting the pins proud, both of which he called "noisy". Also, the dowel joinery allows the builder to dry assemble and disassemble the case to ease door adjustment, frame/panel back adjustment and setting of knife hinges. I am not a CR graduate nor the final word on things Krenovian, but a good friend of mine graduated from there in the 80s, and I had the fortunate opportunity of taking a weekend class there with krenov when he was living. This was in the early 2000s and by then he looked and acted a lot like Yoda from Star Wars.
I agree with the respect comments. You're making something highly pedigreed here. Dress for the occasion. Pocket screws are your faded out Wranglers and you're on your way to a formal event.
Contributor
You could replace those dowels with through tenons, they're just more work.
Use mortise and tenon joints for the legs.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Member
Agreed. Although pocket hole screws are under rated. I attached legs for a ping pong table at work with pocket hole screws. I have seen three football players sitting on the thing without issue.
Member
...Or just use this piece to justify a Festool domino tool, and you have the best of several world's.
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