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Thread: New Workshop Electrical Question

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Padilla View Post
    And I think you are saying: In its most basic form, the neutral will need to at least carry the same amount of current as the hot wire in a circuit. In the case of a multi-wire or Edison-wire style, it can carry less if both the red and black hot are drawing. So in a nutshell, each circuit needs its own neutral...except in the multi-wire or Edison-wire style which only needs one neutral despite being two circuits (I think it is appropriate to call such a wiring style as having two circuits?).

    I would not call that two circuits but that doesn't really matter one way or the other. In reality, I am sure you know that if the load on a sub panel or multi wire circuit is perfectly balanced, then the neutral wire won't carry any current at all. I left out that little detail because it is likely to cause more confusion than enlightenment.


    Actually, the ground can carry current just fine and never trip the circuit breaker. It is there mostly to keep the current flowing back to the panel and not through a person who might touch metal that is accidentally being used to carry current. Now if that circuit has a GFCI on it (receptacle or breaker), THEN the GFCI will trip in this situation since it will detect a large current difference between the hot and neutral (since the white neutral is no longer the return path back to the panel for the current).

    Any time the ground wire is carrying any current, it is not just fine. It is a symptom of a very serious problem. If it is caused by a direct short to ground, one hopes that a breaker will trip but it may not. If you are approaching the point that a 15A or 20A breaker will not prevent someone from being electrocuted, and you need a ground wire to do that, then I agree. It is hard concept for a lot of people to accept that simple breakers protect the wiring only.
    See comments in red.

  2. #32
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    IMG_1614.jpgHere is a photo of my receptacles. Everyone has their own preference, I like separating the 120, and 220. All my 220 have twist lock receptacles, and stainless steel face plates. All of the 120 have white plastic face plates. It just works for me.

    Matt, there are different ways to wire a building, an experienced electrician may be able to use fewer wires, and get double duty from some wires. If I were you, I would not try to save wire by getting double duty from a wire, you do not have experience for that. If you stick to basic wiring, I think you will be fine in wiring your project. Are you running your wires from a main panel or a sub panel? Installing a circuit breaker, and running the wires from the breaker is easy. Just make sure your main breaker is off.

    I will say it again, just stick with the basics. When you leave your panel with two hots and a ground for a 220 circuit, finish the circuit with those three wires. Don't use the ground for anything else, just that circuit. Same with a 120 circuit, leave the panel with one hot, one natural, one ground, and finish the circuit with those three wires. Don't use the ground or natural for anything else...

    Check out one other thing. Where I live, the 120 receptacles have to have that plastic shield so a child can not stick something in one leg of the plug.

    What Art said in red as well...

    Sam
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Sam Layton; 03-09-2017 at 11:55 PM.

  3. #33
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    Sam, thanks for that. I agree, I think some of the advice I'm getting is a bit more advanced than what I'm prepared for and while someone with more experience may be best suited going that route, I think I need to do what is easiest and will work for my setup.

    I'm using my main panel as it is a 200 amp panel and I have about half of it left wide open. It's right on the other side of my exterior garage wall so I was going to put a PVC 8x8x4 junction box on the garage side and run all conduit to that and from there just go straight into the drywall behind it to the panel.

    Thank you for taking the picture, much appreciated. I wish I had run the romex prior to the drywall phase of the build but such is life.

  4. #34
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    Matt, I think you will be fine. If you place your breakers in your panel, balance them ( don't use all of the ones on one side, and leave the other side empty ).

    Sam

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ART
    Any time the ground wire is carrying any current, it is not just fine.


    Good grief, I meant that the ground can carry current...not that it is 'fine' in the sense it is okay...just that it can handle it.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  6. #36
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    A couple of other notes (plus strong agreement with everything Sam said - very nicely put Sam):

    I would suggest running at least a couple of 120v circuits, alternate the outlets so that you have access to circuit A and B within short reach of each other. That is really convenient if you happen to need to plug in two high draw tools at the same time (say a saw and a vacuum). Use different coloured faceplates for each circuit so its easy to tell them apart. It adds cost but as they say cry once You can share conduit for this (watch the fill rates), I generally label the cable ends in shared tenancy conduit because it makes tracking and connecting so much easier using something like https://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bende.../dp/B002YDWQ0I (there are a number of products like this - I actually use something more like: https://www.amazon.com/Panduit-S050X.../dp/B003J1RAFK but a $500 solution kind of seems like overkill for home use ) I haven't seen electricians label cables, but its a cheap way to keep track of things (just don't do like the one guy I worked with did and label one end 1, 2, 3 and the other end A, B, C - A did not go to 1 either.. I was literally gobsmacked).

    Buy some wire lube before trying to pull the wire through the conduit. The wire lube is formulated to not attack the wire sheath so although other things might work its smart to just use the thing made for it. Lubricating the wires makes them MUCH easier to pull and reduces the risk of stretching or tearing the wire sheathing due to friction.

    You can pull a string through the conduit by tying a sandwich bag to the end of the string and sucking it through with a vacuum. Also either put in a pull string loop so you have a backup string, or pull a trailing string with the wire so you have another pull string for later. Using a 25-50lb swivel leader between the pull string and the cables can help keep the wires from twisting to much as you pull them. Having the wires carefully laid out before pulling (as a bundle) can help keep things tidy as well.

    Watch the number of curves's you put in without an access panel - NEC has a limit of (I seem to recall) 360 total degrees but the way its calculated is complicated and counts a lot of non-obvious things so generally cap it at one 90d bend per run for ease of pulling (most of my experience is low voltage which is fussier as well which bias me a bit).

  7. #37
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    Ryan, thanks for all that info. I have actually been thinking about separating the 220v and 110v outlets and putting them in separate boxes next to each other (similar to Sam's setup but with conduit) and I think you just confirmed for me what I had not thought of and that is, for instance, miter saw/vacuum running at the same time. So, I think I will modify my plans to do that and put two duplex 100 receptacles in a 4x4 box and one 220v receptacle in a 2x4 box next to it. I will put the different color plates on them to differentiate circuits, that is a great idea, thank you.

    If I were to do this, can I run the conduit for the 220 and 110 basically together, side by side, and go into each box and then continue this on the line. If you could picture this, one conduit would use an upper hole in the side of the 4x4 box, the other would use a lower hole, one would carry 6 total wires, 3 each for the duplex outlets, the other would carry 3 wires for the 220. The 3 220 wires would just pass through inside of the 4x4 box while the 6 would get hooked up to their receptacles and then same thing but reversed for the 220 2x4 receptacle. Hopefully that made sense, but would that be permissible?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Mooney View Post
    To clarify, if you do that you want only ONE ground return. What you do NOT want is any loops in the ground circuit. That is don't run two grounds from the panel and pigtail them together (I know Jason knows this but the details are well.. the details... which is where the devil lays in wait).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
    I don't think he's running a sound system. Besides, what do you think the conduit is? I'd ground the conduit, and nut all the grounds together in each box. He could pull one larger ground wire to serve several circuits, too.
    Jason

    "Don't get stuck on stupid." --Lt. Gen. Russel Honore


  9. #39
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    I wanted to follow up with what I described above in terms of conduit. The wiring would be the same as my original plan just where I'm running the wires adjusted for each conduit and as outlined.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/y6pept6u7g...nduit.jpg?dl=0

    wiring-plan-long-wall-conduit.jpg

  10. #40
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    Thank you Ryan, your advice is spot on as well. Matt, I did what Ryan said regarding alternating my outlets on both the 120, and 220. I really like his idea about different color face plates. Mine are not marked, and I forgot which are which. I am going to mark them, thanks Ryan.

    I like your idea Matt, regarding the two 120 circuits in the 4x4 box. For the 220 circuit, use a 4x4 box as well. You can use a 4x4 box, and get an adaptor plate that takes it to a single gang opening that will accept one receptacle. That will give you a lot more room wiring your receptacle, especially using the 10 gauge wire.

    You also will need a wire caddie to put your wire on so you can pull it. I don't think wires that just pass through count as fill, I am not sure though. I think you have a good plan that will function well and look good.

    Keep us posted.

    Sam

  11. #41
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    Sam,
    That is good advice on the 4x4 box for the 220 as well. That will also allow me to expand in the future if need be by running more wire to the 4x4 box and putting a second receptacle in there if I wanted with just changing out the face plate.

    I've got a wire caddie on my "to buy" list for sure. I have already run a bunch of cat6/coax/speaker wires during the build between framing and drywall going up so I know how rough it gets trying to unwind wires and keep it sane during the pulls.

  12. #42
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    Looks good to me Matt. I like GFI breakers, instead of GFI plugs. It cost a little bit more, but you are saving a bundle by doing it your self.

    Sam

  13. #43
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    One other thing I would add to your, to buy list, is a tester to test if your circuit is hot or not. Don't know what it is called, but it is about 4" long, 3/4" in diameter, and has a small blade that you insert in the hot leg of a plug, or touch next to a wire to see if it is hot or not. A little light will flash, and it will beep. Any time I work on electrical I always use it to check.

    Sam

  14. #44
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    Sam, yep, I already have one

  15. #45
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    Consider more 240c circuits for an air compressor, welder or air conditioner. I would upsize the conduit where you may latter want to pull more wires. I also would pull a string along with the wires in every conduit run. Leave the string behind after the wires are pulled. makes it much easier to latter pull some more wires.
    If this is a three car garage consider adding a sub panel. That may be cheaper then lots of extra wires.
    Any chance you may get an electric car or rv that needs a 240 outlet in 40 years?
    Bill D.

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